Episode 158: Another Boat in the Dock
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Transcript
Transcript
Time Crisis, back again.
Why are you on Facebook?
Why aren't you?
We want to know.
On today's episode, we talk to Steve Dildarian, creator of 10 Year Old Tom and the Life of Times of Tim.
All that, plus new music from Ed Sheeran, BTS, and Coldplay.
This is
Time Crisis with Ezra Koenig.
Let's begin.
Time Crisis
They passed me by, all of those great romances
The war I felt, the war beneath, all my rightful chances
My picture clear, everything seemed so easy
And so I dealt to the blow, when a boss had to go
Now it's different, I want you to know
One of us is crying, one of us is lying
Leave it on me, babe
Time Crisis, back again.
This one's a real Time Crisis. We're in so many different time zones for this ep.
We don't have Nick yet.
We got Jake, Seinfeld.
Nick will be coming. People are going to be coming and going.
We won't disclose precise locations, but there is an 11 hour spread
between our westernmost post and our easternmost post.
Which I think is a record.
Yeah, no, I think we've never done a full 11 hour. Basically, we're spanning the globe.
The sun never sets on the Time Crisis empire.
Well actually, before the show started, we were just talking about a friend of the show, Al D.
True.
Who called in from China a few eps ago. So truly, the show spans the globe.
That's true.
We got so much to get through. Today we got a very special guest.
Steve Dildarian calling in later. He's got a new show called 10 Year Old Tom.
Some of you might know him from his older show, The Life and Times of Tim.
Before we get to that, man, there's a lot going on with Facebook.
I mean, it's funny. We planned on talking about Facebook on this episode
just because we got a great email from a listener.
But it seems like Facebook's been in the news a lot. I haven't even been following it that much.
Seinfeld, I know I didn't give you a heads up, but you are kind of our go-to guy.
You're our social media guy. What's going on with Facebook? They're getting hacked.
Hey, what's up? Yeah, so there was a whistleblower, a Facebook whistleblower,
who appeared on 60 Minutes a few days ago to essentially reveal a lot of the dark truths
behind the network that we all rely on and also Instagram and WhatsApp, which Facebook also owns.
And long story short, there was a lot of problematic stuff about international conflicts
and also things like young people's body issues, mental health stuff.
That Facebook, the company, was very aware of as far as creating a divisive atmosphere
and they weren't being transparent about.
So this whistleblower, she went on 60 Minutes to sort of blow the lid off of this sort of like
what we already knew, but what she'd actually collected documentation of while working at Facebook.
Then she appeared in front of Congress or the Senate. She was at one of those trials where like...
This is why people listen to Time Crisis, to get the news in a timely fashion.
Yeah. Wait, is that what... I've never actually listened to that podcast, The Daily,
but people always talk... Is the point of The Daily that it's like your daily dose of news?
No, it's like this. It's like what we're doing right now.
It's like Time Crisis. Talking over a poor internet connection.
Is this a couple of guys at the New York Times and just one of them being like,
"Hey, I heard there was like some sh*t about Joe Biden. What's going on?"
The other guy's like, "Hold on. Let me get up the New York Times homepage.
You're probably talking about the infrastructure bill. Oh yeah, I heard something about that."
Yeah, it's a lot of real-time Googling and just sort of skimming headlines
while trying to get the facts straight.
We're the bi-weekly, not The Daily.
Yeah, exactly. And I feel like we're more accurate than any of those news sites.
Yeah, because... Yeah, I'm sorry. You know, I want to talk about misinformation.
The Daily, you don't need to know about stuff daily.
That's how you get misinformation. You need minimum two weeks for the dust to settle
and then for strong analytical minds to come in and look through the rubble
and give you the real story. Anybody who tells you they're giving you the news daily
is a lot of smoke and mirrors, folks. Sorry to say.
No, that's exactly right. But then compounding all of this,
Facebook on Monday completely shut down.
There was some sort of, like, I don't understand it.
There was some kind of hack or something, but also Instagram was down.
The entire Facebook suite of products went off the grid.
And so, you know...
For how long?
I think it was about a full 12-hour day.
By the evening, they had gotten back online.
And, you know, they made some excuse about we were porting over something or whatever.
But personally, I think someone hacked them and they just don't want to be like
we are vulnerable to that kind of hack.
It's just a coincidence that this whistle was blown.
Exactly.
I don't know. I got to look into this a little bit.
But I just feel like, based on what you're telling me,
anything that starts on 60 Minutes, no disrespect to the program,
but, you know, that's like big time.
It's like when they start showing the UFO footage.
Jake and I, we talked about this a bit.
But, you know, when they're launching the kind of UFO footage on 60 Minutes,
you're already kind of like, all right, this is...
We're not getting the real stuff.
You know what I mean?
That story really faded hard, didn't it?
Remember, they were like, oh, we're going to release all this UFO stuff in May.
May of 2021 or June or whatever it was.
And then it was like a lot of anticipation and build up to that story.
And then it was a whole pot of nothing.
It's a real nothing burger.
But, you know, 60 Minutes, in the lead up to that big document drop,
they were getting big ratings.
Right.
Yeah, there was a lot of hype leading up to the dock drop.
And 60 Minutes was like, we're going to do a show right before the dock drop
that we're going to basically speculate wildly, time crisis style,
on what is in the dock and nothing's in there.
Oh, boy.
They just hit us with the grainy footage.
Just like, oh, that's something.
Come on, let us see the real stuff.
But anyway, long before this whistleblower is out there telling us stuff
that sounds like everybody already knew,
which is basically that people say wild stuff on social media.
And there is not and never will be a true mechanism to sort through it,
because it's impossible.
And it's rough on impressionable, vulnerable minds.
And I guess is the scandal that it's sort of like the cigarette companies
for decades were like, smoking's not bad for you.
But it turns out they knew the whole time it was.
Is it sort of like Facebook is like, ooh, publicly,
they're like, everything's cool.
We're just a content platform.
And then behind closed doors, they're like, man, maybe this is messed up.
Is that the whistleblower?
I get the sense that it's a little bit more nuanced, less cut and dry.
Because I think there were some acknowledgment that, OK,
we're working on it.
We know there's harassment, but we're going to fix it.
But then she collected all these documents that were very like,
this is a problem.
And there are a couple of things like, did you know that Instagram
was working on an Instagram for kids?
Oh, yeah, that was out.
Didn't know.
That was an initiative that to capitalize on the sort of preteen market,
they were going to do a different version of Instagram for kids.
That was sort of like, at the same time, conflicting with this research
that they had done internally that was like, oh, Instagram is actually
quite bad for kids and young girls, especially.
I guess the thing that confuses me is like, all this stuff is bad
for human beings.
What was that old kind of like hippie poster that's like,
nuclear war is bad for adults, children, and all human beings?
Let me look this up.
I mean, the other thing that stood out was like, apparently,
Facebook is set up in a lot of countries where they haven't put
the proper staffing in place so that like more vulnerable nations
can take advantage of it as a means of communication that can then,
you know, and here's where I get a little hazy on it,
but can kind of like lead to a lot of strife and like conflict
because there's no moderation happening.
So that was one of the big things that they've done,
that it was like very geopolitically.
I'm sure it's a real slippery slope with moderation, though,
because it's like, who's moderating?
The thing I was thinking of is this is a classic old hippie poster.
It's kind of handwritten with like this kind of flower looking thing,
and it says nuclear power is not healthy for children and other living things,
which kind of debatable these days.
Occasionally, you talk to people who are just like,
nuclear power is the only thing that's going to save us,
so the hippies got to lighten up on that.
I don't know enough to have a full point of view, but yeah,
I think it's similar that I can imagine people being more up in arms
about Instagram for children, and I'm sure Instagram is not healthy
for children and other living things, which is probably true of Facebook,
Twitter, even podcasts, basically everything other than internet radio.
As we've long said, internet radio is the only ethical form of content.
It's also the only ethical form of social media.
I got on Instagram, I think when I was 35,
and I'm thankful I was that old.
Yeah.
Fully formed.
That should be the cutoff.
You can join when you're 35.
It's like you can run for president when you're 35,
and you can join Instagram.
[laughs]
Right.
Yeah, that's like the classic argument of like,
back in the day, you couldn't even vote when you were 18,
so people would say like, you can send me to die in war,
but I can't vote?
That doesn't make any sense.
And it should be like, wait a second.
I can't even run for president, but I can use Instagram?
How does that make any sense?
Joe Biden?
No, no, really think about it.
I literally cannot run for president.
I can't be the boss of the nation,
and yet I can use this toxic platform?
That makes no sense.
How old do you have to be to use Instagram?
Is there even a rule?
Oh, yeah.
I think it's--
Guys, I would be a really good leader.
Of this nation?
You got my vote.
I would be a really good leader, guys.
It's-- I believe it.
It's 13.
13, you can start an account.
That's right.
How do they even verify that?
But then you also have the phenomenon of--
there's parents who start Instagram accounts for their babies in utero.
Yeah.
That's incredibly cool.
You know what?
I've long said--
That's incredible.
I'm sure they have their reasons sometimes,
but, you know, it's funny.
I'm sure we've had this--
I can't remember if we've had this privately or on the show,
but, you know, we're all parents here.
We don't get into too much parenting talk on the show.
But, you know, I understand.
Everybody's got a different relationship with social media.
And, of course, it's understandable.
Some people want to have a quick way to share stuff about their kids
with their family and friends.
And, you know, sometimes maybe you get--
I don't know about you guys.
Maybe sometimes you get a little tired of like,
"Oh, I got to text this to grandma and grandpa."
I don't know.
I could imagine some people being like, "I want a one-stop shop.
I don't like group chats," whatever.
I don't judge, but I've always wondered,
because on the one hand, people sometimes create Instagram accounts
for their children or, you know, whatever.
Again, I'm not judging.
But on the other hand, there's this school of thought that says
social media will one day be looked at as cigarettes.
Imagine if back in the '60s you had your baby smoke cigarettes.
From the day they were born,
eventually some of those kids would turn around and say,
"Why did you make me smoke cigarettes as a baby?"
"I don't know. I'm suing you."
Or like, "This is going to be a big problem."
"I don't know."
So I've always wondered about that.
And, you know, it's like a dumb dinner party conversation
where I just always say,
"I wonder if that's going to be a whole thing. I don't know."
And I always try to be like,
"Hey, I don't judge, but I just wonder."
- A dumb dinner party.
- Yeah, just like, "I wonder if that'll be a thing."
You know, sitting next to somebody you don't know that well or whatever.
- The future is going to be crazy, right? Huh?
- Yeah, I mean, because think about like,
when we were kids, it was pretty different.
You know what I mean?
- Crazy, dude.
- How old are you?
♪ Man walks out of his apartment ♪
♪ It is raining, he's got no umbrella ♪
♪ He starts running beneath the awnings ♪
♪ Trying to save his suit ♪
♪ Trying to, trying to, trying to drive, but no good ♪
♪ When he gets to the crowded subway platform ♪
♪ He takes off both of his shoes ♪
♪ He steps right into somebody's fat lookie ♪
♪ And everyone who sees him says, "Ew" ♪
♪ Everyone who sees him says, "Ew" ♪
♪ But he doesn't care 'cause last night ♪
♪ He got a visit from the ghost of corporate future ♪
♪ The ghost said, "Take off both your shoes ♪
♪ Whatever chances you get ♪
♪ Especially when they're wet" ♪
♪ He also said, "Imagine you go away ♪
♪ On a business trip one day ♪
♪ And when you come back home ♪
♪ Your children have grown ♪
♪ And you never made your wife moan ♪
♪ Your children have grown ♪
♪ And you never made your wife moan ♪
♪ And people make you nervous ♪
♪ You think the world is ending ♪
♪ And everybody's features have somehow started blending ♪
♪ And everything is plastic ♪
♪ And everyone's sarcastic ♪
♪ Well, your food is frozen ♪
♪ It needs to be defrosted ♪
♪ You think the world is ending ♪
♪ You think the world is ending ♪
♪ You think the world is ending right now ♪
♪ You think the world is ending ♪
♪ You think the world is ending ♪
♪ You think the world is ending right now ♪
So, yeah, I always, you know, I always thought
that was kind of like a speculative question.
Yeah, we don't know.
We don't know how people--
Obviously, we don't know the effect
that technology has on people,
but also we just don't know
what the emotional terrain will be like.
Will people--
Or I've also wondered sometimes,
will there be kids who sue their parents
because they didn't start an Instagram account for them?
Where you just be like,
somebody's like in their mid-20s
and they feel aimless
and all their random friends
have millions and millions of followers
and they just say to their parents like,
"You ruined my life."
You blew it.
"You didn't start an Instagram account for me."
Say, "Well, we didn't think you needed that.
"We were more concerned with like putting some money aside
"for your college fund."
"What the f*** am I gonna do with that?
"Nobody goes to college anymore.
"You idiot.
"I needed an Instagram account."
"Well, honey, we thought social media
"was gonna be akin to cigarettes,
"but it turns out it's actually the most important platform
"for--
"the greatest avenue for future income imaginable.
"We didn't know that."
"You're gonna compare social media to cigarettes?
"Cigarettes, that was in 20th century industry
"run by scumbags.
"President Zuckerberg saved the world.
"You idiot.
"You absolute fool.
"I've got nothing.
"I've got nothing."
Anyway, it's something I don't think about that often,
only at dinner parties.
But then I was thinking about the lawsuit of the kid
who was on the cover of Nevermind.
- Oh, my God. - It's doing Nirvana.
We don't even need to get into that,
but it just made me think,
"Oh, yeah, it's like a--
"Who knows, maybe there'll be some kid who,
"whether or not they're swimming,
"they're naked in a swimming pool grabbing cash,
"they might also feel like,
"I shouldn't have had an Instagram account,"
or vice versa.
Honestly, it's 50/50.
- It's gonna cut both ways, folks. - That little bit, we just--
It's gonna cut both ways.
Actually, I'm sure that's true.
It's literally gonna be both.
- They're gonna be people who just like-- - Oh, yeah.
Not talking to their parents for both reasons.
Such a cool reason.
So buckle up, all the silverback millennial parents,
all the Gen X parents,
buckle up, because, you know,
whatever you choose--
And you might even pick the wrong social media.
There might be a kid who their parents
build them a great Instagram following,
starting with the first ultrasound,
and it gets even bigger
once they actually come out into the world.
By the time they're an adult,
they're inheriting millions of followers
and a really great source of income,
and the parents think they did something special,
but maybe the kid says,
"I didn't want an Instagram account.
"I wanted a Facebook account.
"You should have made me a Facebook account
"instead of Instagram."
And they say, "Well, honey, we're huge Van Morrison fans.
"You gotta understand the climate at the time.
"Van the Man had just released a song
"called 'Why Are You On Facebook?'
"Everybody was talking about it.
"The Time Crisis guys really did a whole segment on it.
"Like, we really didn't think Facebook was the cool one.
"I know it's probably hard for you to understand,
"but Facebook was like the uncool one,
"and Instagram was kind of like cooler."
And be like, "That doesn't make any sense."
No, it's true.
I mean, Facebook had a real rough run there, kiddo.
2021.
♪ Why are you on Facebook? ♪
That'll be like the type of parent where the kid's just like,
this is like a classic Time Crisis thing,
the kid who's talking to their parents
who's live in the '80s who's just like,
"Wait, so you guys didn't like Phil Collins?"
And they'd just be like, "No, no, no.
"Phil Collins was like, 'That was uncool, man.
"'We wouldn't touch that with a 10-foot pole.'"
And just be like, "Wait, you didn't like 'In the Air Tonight?'"
And be like, "I mean, I guess it was an okay song,
"but no, no, it was really uncool,
"but the drum sounds are so iconic and influential.
"I mean, that's an amazing song.
"What did you think was cool?"
And they're like, "Well, honey, we weren't a hardcore punk.
"I mean, we were listening to Black Flag and Flipper,
"getting a little early Sonic Youth."
And the kid's just like, "What are you talking about?
"You thought that was better
"than Phil Collins' 'In the Air Tonight?'
"You really don't understand the cultural context here."
It might be like that with Facebook and Instagram.
- If you're gonna make your kid
build out the social media presence,
you really have to hit every platform equally.
You need to do the Snapchat, do the Twitter,
get them on TikTok.
- Yes, I love that.
In other words, you need a balanced portfolio.
- That's right, the portfolio of children's social media accounts,
you gotta sort of put the same percentage into each of them.
- Exactly.
Grandma and Grandpa gave a couple hundred bucks
for you to put sock away for a newborn baby.
If you're gonna put it all into Dogecoin, who knows?
Maybe you'll be the biggest genius of all,
or maybe you'll end up with nothing.
But you put a little bit into Dogecoin,
put a little bit of it into Apple,
put a little bit of it into Coca-Cola, blue chip stock,
Disney, I don't know.
Spread it out.
♪ He's my berserker, burger ghost ♪
♪ Maybe, maybe ♪
♪ Where are his hands? ♪
♪ And why don't you ever see them in public? ♪
♪
♪ And what does he do with all that sand? ♪
♪ He collects and writes ♪
♪ I think I read that somewhere ♪
♪ Seems innocent enough ♪
- So anyway, back to Facebook.
I'll tell you one thing,
I haven't thought about Facebook this much in a long time,
so they're doing something right.
(high-pitched squeal)
I have not seen the documents,
but they're doing something right,
'cause here we are talking all about them.
But before all this kicked off,
we got this email from a guy named Mike,
and...
(laughs)
I love this, just like, October 3rd,
probably like a solid six weeks
after we talked about the Van Morrison song,
and just, subject, pitch.
Why are you on Facebook campaign?
And just in case anybody doesn't remember,
I'll explain one more time,
Van Morrison, one of the singles from his new album,
which is very tastefully done,
is called "Why Are You On Facebook?"
And, you know,
Van is asking some uncomfortable questions right now.
He's asking questions about, you know,
aspects of the global COVID response.
He's also asking questions about "Why Are You On Facebook?"
And it's like a classic Van song.
It says, "Why are you on Facebook?"
Basically, yeah, like, why?
So anyway, this guy, Mike, he flipped the script.
He's saying that this is a pitch using the song
for Facebook, rather than a critique of Facebook,
which I think is what Van intended.
This is a pitch for Facebook marketing campaign.
- Let's go to the time crisis mailbag.
- Van Morrison's "Why Are You On Facebook?"
plays behind a sequence of people answering the question,
"Why are you on Facebook?"
Example, a young family walks through a farmer's market
in a newly gentrified neighborhood.
Why am I on Facebook?
Because it's a great way to stay connected.
(laughs)
Because it's a great way to stay connected
to my local community.
And presumably, again, the scene shifts,
and again, we hear Van go, "Why are you on Facebook?"
A baby boomer looks up from their desktop computer.
Love the details, Mike. This is a great email.
A baby boomer looks up from their desktop computer
and says with a satisfied expression,
"Why am I on Facebook?
Because I believe in doing my own research."
(laughs)
Love that.
Wait, is that the whole email?
- That's the whole email.
- That's great.
I love that. Short and sweet, to the point.
Would Van be open to that?
Might seem a little hypocritical, but, you know, money talks.
If Facebook came a-calling,
it could actually be pretty cool.
- Why are you on Facebook?
And then it's a shot of a silverback millennial
on his laptop sitting on his couch saying,
"I'd like to keep in touch with ex-girlfriends."
(laughs)
And then his wife comes into the room, "Honey?"
- That's the SNL version.
It's like the weird turn.
What did you say?
Nothing.
- Apparently, Van played the Hollywood Bowl the other night,
but he did not play "Why are you on Facebook?"
- Oh, you checked out the set list?
- I didn't actually bring up the set list.
Maybe we should do it.
But I saw on Twitter, mutual friend Eugene--
- You're doing your own research?
- Yeah, I was doing my own research on Twitter,
and mutual friend Eugene was at the show.
- Eugene Katyalarenko?
- Exactly.
- Whoa.
- Esteemed director of--
He actually made that movie about social media,
about whatever that movie was called.
God damn, I'm really blown here, Eugene.
(laughs)
- The Social Dilemma?
- No, he made a movie about an Uber driver
who's live streaming--
- He's made a few.
Yeah, that's called "Spree."
And he also made--
He made a very early social media movie
called "A Beautiful Cloud" or "A Wonderful Cloud."
- We're almost nailing it with Eugene here.
But Eugene was at the Van show,
and I said--I asked him, I go,
"Did he play 'Why are you on Facebook?'
'cause that's a top 10 Van song for me."
(laughs)
And he goes, "No, man. Sadly, no."
I don't think he played anything off the new
record music project album, whatever it's called.
- I got a good one. Okay.
What if it's like an aunt, and she's on her porch,
and she's got her phone, and it's like,
"Why are you on Facebook?"
And she's like, "To keep up with the latest
and greatest in internet comedy."
And then we see what she's looking at,
and it's like Dr. Anthony Fauci with devil horns,
and he's got a syringe, and it's full of evil
little devils or whatever,
and she's chuckling innocently.
That's my entry.
- Love it.
- Oh, okay. He opened--
Sorry, I'm just circling back to the set list
at Hollywood Bowl on October 2nd.
He opened the set with Latest Record Project.
- 'Cause that's the name of a song on the album?
- I think that's track one on the new record.
- Okay. All right, so he dropped five songs
from Latest Record Project, I'm seeing.
- Oh, really?
- Yeah.
- But no, "Why are you on Facebook?"
And no COVID material.
- No, but he--
It's like, I'm looking at the set list.
It's a nice mix.
You know, you got a lot of--
five songs from the new album,
but you also got "Moon Dance."
- Jackie Wilson said, that's a classic.
- He closed the set, the main set,
with "Into the Mystic."
- Nice.
- And then the encore was "Help Me,"
and then brought it down with "Gloria."
- Mm-hmm.
- That's tight.
- I wonder if Van had some, like,
tough conversations with his manager,
and Van's like, "Listen, I'm going on tour.
"I wanna bring my COVID material.
"I wanna do my Facebook material."
And the manager was just like, "Listen,
"I understand where you're coming from.
"Believe me, I do, but people are paying
"a top dollar to see Van Morrison
"at the Hollywood Bowl.
"It's a liberal audience."
- Van, you can't do it at the Hollywood Bowl.
- Man, if you wanna do it, you know,
if you're playing the show in Oklahoma City,
you know, Godspeed.
- It looks like his last few shows
were all in California,
and it looks like the set list is pretty similar.
Yeah, I wonder if he ever, like,
really mixes it up.
I'm noticing no brown-eyed girl.
- Yeah, he's done "Why Are You On Facebook?"
He, uh, Max has crunched the number.
- He has?
- Yeah, he performed it once,
live on May 8th of the year
at Real World Studios in Box, England.
Are you familiar with, uh--
- Oh, yeah, I've been there.
That's Peter Gabriel's studio.
So maybe this was some kind of,
you know, it's not a venue, it's a studio.
Maybe this was some sort of live stream.
- Oh, yeah, look, there's a--
Oh, there's footage of it on YouTube.
It's a 90-minute concert he did.
- I know what I'm watching after we finish taping.
- Yeah, I'm gonna--
First thing I'm doing, dialing that up.
- Yeah, maybe his manager's like,
"Listen, Van, if you're not gonna give him
"brown-eyed girl, you can't give them
"'Why Are You On Facebook?'"
'Cause we can't have people walking away
from the show saying,
"I didn't get to hear 'brown-eyed girl,'
"but I did get to hear 'Why Are You On Facebook?'"
Even though he is tapping back into
that brown-eyed girl era
with the production on "Why Are You On Facebook?"
- Sure.
- It actually would flow pretty well into each other.
- And Van's like, "I could do one for me
"and one for them.
"I could do brown-eyed for them.
"I could do Facebook for me,
"but you know what?
"I'm gonna do none of 'em.
"Nothing for no one."
- Come on, Van.
- ♪ Why are you on Facebook?
♪ Do-do, do-do, do-do
♪ Why do you need second-hand friends?
♪ Do-do, do-do, do-do
♪ Why do you really care who's trending?
♪ Do-do, do-do, do-do
♪ Or is there something you're defending?
♪ Do-do, do-do, do-do
♪ Dear life, is it that empty inside?
♪ Do-do, do-do, do-do
♪ Or are you after something you can't have?
♪ Do-do, do-do, do-do
♪ You kiss the girls and run away
♪ Do-do, do-do, do-do
♪ Now you won't come out to play
♪ Why are you on Facebook?
♪ Why are you on Facebook?
♪ Why are you on Facebook?
♪ Why are you on Facebook?
♪ Why are you on Facebook?
♪ Why are you on Facebook?
♪ Why are you on Facebook?
- Van Morrison and Facebook, they're both popping right now.
Admittedly, they're, you know,
they're coming at it from different angles,
but like, I mean, I don't, you know,
we didn't talk about Van Morrison that much on this show.
We don't talk about Facebook that much.
And here we are, just, Van's back.
And Facebook's back.
But also in the midst of this, I didn't hear about this.
Was this a big story?
I guess this, we just kind of missed this earlier in the year.
Roger Waters turned down Facebook's offer
to use another brick in the wall in an ad.
So I guess in June, he told the press
at a pro-Julian Assange event
that Facebook approached him about using Pink Floyd's
"Another Brick in the Wall Part Two"
in an upcoming ad campaign for Instagram.
Waters said, "The request arrived this morning
"with an offer for a huge, huge amount of money.
"And the answer is, 'F*** you. No f***ing way.'"
He added, "I only mention that because this is
"an insidious movement of them
"to take over absolutely everything.
"I will not be a party to this bullsh*t, Zuckerberg."
- Hell yeah, Roger.
- He went on to read a letter that he said
came from Facebook saying,
"We want to thank you for considering this project.
"We feel that the core sentiment of this song
"is still so prevalent and so necessary today,
"which speaks to how timeless the work is."
He then added, "And yet they want to use it
"to make Facebook and Instagram more powerful
"than it already is, so that it can continue
"to censor all of us in this room
"and prevent this story about Julian Assange
"getting out into the general public
"so the general public can go, 'What? No more?'"
Waters also brought up Zuckerberg's pre-Facebook site,
FaceMash, which he created to rate women
on the basis of looks, saying,
"How did this little prick who started out saying,
"'She's pretty, we'll give her a four out of five.
"'She's ugly, we'll give her a four out of five.'
"I don't know why they'd get the same score.
"How did we give him any power?
"And yet here he is, one of the most powerful idiots
"in the world."
The only thing I would say about that is,
you know, come on, Roger, you're an artist.
Don't judge him on his early work, you know?
(laughing)
Like, Roger, you didn't come into your own
as a songwriter in the Sid Barrett era, you know?
You were like laying back in the cut.
- What do you think Facebook's intent was?
I'm just looking up the lyrics to this song.
- That's "We Don't Need No Education," right?
- Right, it's weird.
It doesn't quite fit.
- It's very hard to imagine any kind of Instagram ad
where they would want to have this kind of like,
angry, rebellious, anti-authoritarian thing.
Unless it was truly like an ad where the whole thing
is like about like, "Hey kids, it's okay to use your phone
"in school.
"Who gives a (beep) what the teacher says?"
'Cause that's, it's a whole,
it's like an anti-teacher song.
- Yeah, it's like, "We don't need no education."
- "Hey, teacher!"
- Yeah.
- It's like the Apple 1984 ad,
just like taking place in a dystopian future,
and there's all these kids like hiding their phones
and the teacher's like,
"I better not catch you on Instagram.
"You have to learn about history today."
And it's all like gray and scary,
and then just like Roger Waters busts in,
he's like, "Hey, teacher, leave those kids alone."
And they start scrolling through Instagram
and they realize, "Wow, there's a whole world out there.
"I was in here learning boring (beep) like algebra,
"reading Shakespeare,
"when I could have been scrolling through Instagram.
"We don't need no education.
"This is our education."
- "If you don't eat your meat, you can't have any pudding.
"How can you have any pudding if you don't eat your meat?"
(laughing)
In what universe could this song speak
to anything about Instagram?
- Right, 'cause I'm just picturing the classic
children's chorus doing,
♪ We don't need no education ♪
And it's like, how the hell does that,
because they're trying to advertise,
they're trying to make their product more palatable
to the people that have money,
that are spending money like adults, in other words.
I just don't understand how that ties in
with their hope to seem like a socially responsible,
positive influence on people.
I just don't--
- One thing I will say, though,
that's a kind of interesting contradiction
that's dawning on me is,
and that's also one reason why none of this stuff
will ever be resolved,
is because these social media platforms,
sure, they're insidious in many ways.
They do little things to, you know,
everybody knows they do little things
to give you the dopamine rush, whatever,
but also, they're just where people speak now.
So it's just like, it is, you know,
it's the town square.
It's the battle of ideas.
So it sounds like,
and I might have this slightly wrong,
because I only get my news from time crisis sometimes,
but it sounds like the whistleblower is kind of saying,
Facebook knows that people are saying and doing
bad and harmful things on the platform,
and yet they don't take action.
And yet, Roger Waters is saying kind of the opposite.
He's saying, "F*** this little prick
"who's censoring stories about Julian Assange."
Well, the whistleblower and Roger Waters,
they're probably not gonna agree on everything.
For instance, you know,
the more power they give Facebook or the government
to decide what shouldn't be on Facebook,
the more likely that something Roger Waters believes in
might get banned.
Maybe there's like a hot story from Rolling Stone
that says, "You know what?
"David Gilmour really wasn't that good at guitar."
And somebody at Facebook says,
"This is misinformation.
"This is bad faith actors
"are trying to get this idea out there
"that David Gilmour really wasn't that good at guitar.
"We're shutting it down."
And Roger Waters said, "Well, hold on a second.
"I'd like to read that article."
And I think a lot of Pink Floyd fans
might find that kind of interesting.
You know, they're not gonna be vibing.
- I mean, that's what people accuse Facebook
of perpetrating on its users, thought control.
- And that's why there's always gonna be two sides to it.
You're gonna have the people saying,
"Don't you tell me what to think.
"Let me just use the platform."
Then there's gonna be people saying,
"How can you let misinformation
"and harmful ideas spread on your platform?"
They're diametrically opposed.
- Very creepy choice.
- We gotta contact the ad agency and see the boards.
- It was probably gonna be some sort of user-generated thing
where it was gonna be like a bunch of people
all over the world, different demographics,
all singing, doing little lines from the song
and kind of building into a chorus
of all these people sort of in the countercultural spirit of it.
Like, "Oh, Instagram allows me to be my authentic self."
And that's the vibe that I'm kind of drafting off of
from the song.
You know, you've got a Swedish couple
in a Scandinavian environment singing a line,
and then you've got a dad singing it as a lullaby to his kid,
and then you cut to India, and you've got--
You know what I mean?
And then it all zooms out, and you see the grid,
and they're all like--
- And then it's like,
♪ All in all, you're just another brick in the wall ♪
And each person's little screen is a brick,
and it makes this--
- No, it's so weird.
Yeah, because they could try to make it seem like
you guys are stuck in the matrix
of education, top-down authoritarianism,
whereas on Instagram, you get to break free.
I guess it's also kind of like the paradox of freedom,
the paradox of being a rebel.
- No, but the funny part is a wall--
The image-- The wall symbolically
is something that divides people.
Walls are put up to keep people apart from each other.
- And isn't that what you call it?
Is it called your wall on Instagram?
- Facebook.
- On Facebook, it's your wall.
- And the whole point of the song is that
you're another brick in the wall.
You're another cog in the machine.
You're a faceless slab of clay
that's just stacked in with the other ones.
You're completely--
- And on Instagram, you--
- And the whole point of the song is that it's like
you have to get away from that.
I'm mystified.
- This is deep and weird.
Maybe Roger Waters made it up.
He knows how to get the people riled up.
He knows his audience.
- I like Roger Waters, though,
being just an old-school rock star,
just being like, "F*** you."
- "F*** you, Zuckerberg."
- Just, like, fury and anger directed
towards the powerful.
I love it.
- I like David Gilmour, too, though.
I'm not taking sides.
I just want to look one more time at the language
of the letter that Roger Waters said
came from Facebook,
because it's been a while since we kind of,
you know, clowned on the archetypal
Vassar grad working in advertising,
working in public relations.
You know, maybe we went a little bit hard on it,
obviously.
The archetypes don't always really represent
the reality.
But this language,
when you actually picture the person who wrote this,
"We want to thank you for considering this project.
We feel that the core sentiment of this song
is still so prevalent."
That's a very weird, awkward language.
"And so necessary today,
which speaks to how timeless the work is."
Like, this very vague, cheerful,
but vague suck-up,
like, talking about the work is timeless,
but it's so pre--
It's just like this kind of meaningless language.
- Yeah.
- And also, clearly, they didn't do their homework.
That's like--
It's just so backwards.
- He's like the last guy they should have asked.
Like, if you see his show--
- Yeah.
- You know, we remember we went to see him
at the Staples Center a few years ago.
- Right, right, right.
- And, like, yeah, he had that huge,
like, inflatable piggy bank floating around.
It was just a very, like,
strident politically in its presentation.
It was just very, like, anti-Trump,
anti-authority.
- Right.
- Anti-capitalism, in a sense.
I mean, even though he was playing
a huge show at the Staples Center.
But he's basically just like,
"Money's not everything, kids."
- Well, this is interesting.
Pink Floyd have licensed their music for ads,
including "Dole Bananas."
That's a funny one,
because somebody with lefty political leanings
like Roger Waters would probably be very aware
that some weird history with "Dole Bananas."
French soft drink company, Génie,
who in turn helped lower ticket prices
for their 1974 tour.
All right, trying to keep the ticket prices lower.
Who could be mad at that?
Labatt's Ice Bear.
- Probably beer?
- Is that a specific beer called Ice Bear
that Labatt makes?
Unless it's a typo.
Ice Beer.
And Volkswagen.
- Oh, it is a typo.
- Okay.
All right, that makes sense.
Wait, can I get a number crunch?
What Pink Floyd song was in a Volkswagen ad?
- Now.
- Let's get a number crunch.
- Brought to you by Seinfeld 2000.
- They actually did a car,
like Pink Floyd edition Volkswagen.
It was a limited edition Golf
that was sold between 1994 and '95,
mostly in Germany.
This is like proto-collaborative.
This is like some Travis Scott, like early on.
It looks like it's just,
it's got Pink Floyd like art,
like decals, like burned into the,
oh, and in the seats too,
and the embroidery.
This is.
- Really?
- This is something.
- All right.
- Yeah, this is a trip.
- I know what my next car is.
- It has Pink Floyd,
just the words Pink Floyd,
like embroidered into the headrest.
Sorry.
- Whoa.
- Kind of funny to see.
- That does sound kind of early
for like a classic rock car collab.
If you told me like that next year,
the Grateful Dead had,
had a, like a full on like automotive line
coming out with a Volkswagen,
I'd be like, of course,
there's probably a special bus
and probably like Mickey Hart signed the tailpipe.
And it's probably like got a record player in it.
Sure.
But that is, that '94 is a little early.
Okay, Pink Floyd were pioneers.
I guess they keep you guessing.
♪ We don't need no education ♪
♪ We don't need no thought control ♪
♪ No dark sarcasm in the classroom ♪
♪ Teacher leave them kids alone ♪
♪ Hey teacher leave them kids alone ♪
♪ All in all it's just a year ♪
♪ Another brick in the wall ♪
♪ All in all you're just a ♪
♪ Another brick in the wall ♪
♪ We don't need no education ♪
♪ We don't need no thought control ♪
- We now got Nick.
- Sorry for my lateness.
- Hey teacher, leave those kids alone.
(laughing)
So we've got Steve Dildaring about to call in.
And Nick, maybe you could set him up
because you just worked on his new show.
- Yeah.
So the synergy is really happening.
Like the world's colliding.
Yeah, I, you know, when I'm not doing this show,
I make cartoons mostly and an occasional game show.
But I started this new company
and the first show I did is with this guy, Steve Dildarian,
who made like the first, like HBO's first,
and I'm almost only, like they made maybe two cartoons,
but he had this show like 10 years ago
called "The Life and Times of Tim"
that was like an OG adult animated show
that I know Matt was a big fan of.
And I think Seinfeld, you were a big fan of.
And it was like, you know, had like early Nick Kroll.
Like that's actually one of the first times
I think I heard Nick Kroll was in that show.
And it was, you know, so it was like these,
it was like very adult swimmy in a way.
It was pretty dry and sort of had this sort of
monotone kind of thing,
but it was two 11 minute episodes that were put together.
And it was sort of like a real culty kind of thing.
Like there was nothing else on HBO that was like it.
It was like late at night,
like maybe on like a Friday or something.
And I loved it.
And in fact, tried to buy it when I was at Adult Swim
to like keep it going or air it.
So I met him when I was trying to like revive it
when it was off HBO.
And then when I started this new thing,
I was introduced to him again
and he had this idea for a cartoon.
He had a few, but this one sort of really struck me
as the most interesting,
but it was almost like it was the exact same show
as like "Betide the Tim"
except if you made the main character 10 years old.
And so I was like, well, that seems easy.
Like I already can see it.
It's just the younger version of that guy.
And so we sold the show to HBO Max,
who were amazing and loved working with them.
And it was cool because then they were able to get
"Life and Times of Tim" and put it on with them.
But what was crazy is the second we sold the show,
like literally two or three days later, COVID started.
So we did basically every single thing in quarantine.
And this is a guy that, and he can talk about it,
but like he likes to bring everybody into the booth
to record together, you know, like he,
but none of that happened, you know?
So literally the entire show,
I haven't seen him since we made the show.
Like we've not been, for two years, you know,
we sold the show, we'd hung out a few times
and then haven't seen each other since starting.
So he's been, I think he's still in Europe.
Like he just like kind of also did his own thing
where he's like on some weird, crazy schedule
where he's making the show from like Scotland.
So, well, he's been there for a while,
but he's, yeah, he's really a fascinating guy.
And, you know, I think some people on here, you know,
really dig the show,
but specifically he felt like a TC guest
because before making the cartoon that he made,
he was like a big advertising dude.
And he made his claim to fame from that I understand,
and we should talk to him about it,
is that he created the Budweiser lizards.
- And there's definitely a few people at home saying
the Budweiser lizards,
because the lizards took over from the frogs.
I mean, I guess we can get into that with him,
but it's from the same era.
- Yeah, it's the same era, you know, the Budweiser.
And by the way, he may have created the frog.
I mean, I feel like-
- Okay, so we got a lot of questions for him.
- Let's call him.
- And we're going to get him to weigh in
on the whole Pink Floyd debacle.
- Now let's go to the Time Crisis Hotline.
(phone ringing)
- Steve, welcome to Time Crisis.
- Hey, thank you.
How's it going?
- Great to have you on.
- Yeah, thanks for having me.
This is exciting.
- You're a legend of both animation and advertising.
- Nice.
- So if you don't mind getting right into it,
I don't know if you heard about five months ago,
Roger Waters did a press conference
and he said that Facebook had reached out to him
because they wanted to use
Another Brick in the Wall Part Two
for a big campaign for Instagram.
They offered him a lot of money,
but Roger Waters said that Zuckerberg was a little prick
and he said they could basically go (beep) themselves.
So we were kind of talking about that,
but none of us have any real experience
in the advertising world.
And as we talked about it, we just started to think,
what the (beep) kind of Instagram commercial
could use that song?
- These tech companies have all the money.
That's crazy what the songs they buy.
It's not like it was when I was doing it.
You see them buying Rolling Stones.
You know, there's, sky's the limit.
I'm not surprised they could get a Pink Floyd song.
- Well, they didn't ultimately get it
because I guess for Roger Waters,
some things are more important than money.
But money aside,
so you know the song, right?
We Don't Need No Education.
We Don't Need No Thought Control.
Just off the top of your head,
and I know we're throwing hard balls at you
just as soon as you get on the phone,
but just off the top of your head,
just even, let's say they got it.
Let's say they spent $2 million, whatever, they got it.
How do you use that song and that sentiment
in an ad for Instagram?
- Oh, just creatively.
That is a good question.
- Creatively.
- Yeah, to reverse engineer that.
I don't know off the top of my head.
(laughs)
I'm stumped.
If this is, yeah, out of the gate,
you've got me stumped.
(laughs)
- Hey teacher, leave those kids alone.
(laughs)
- I think a lot of these tech companies
see themselves in that kind of renegade point of view,
to be honest.
I'm sure there's no irony to it from where they stand.
- I'm sure you're right.
And that's probably why our cultural moment is so weird
is because, I don't know who said it,
but there's that famous quote,
"Nobody's as surprised as the revolutionary
"who finds themselves rebelled against."
Or the revolutionary finds themselves revolutioned against.
And I'm sure you're right.
All these guys who now truly are,
they're so much power, so in bed with the government,
but they probably still think of themselves
as some kind of badass hacker dudes.
Yeah, that's what's confusing about it.
- They are the wall.
- I think I have a scenario.
- Okay.
- I imagine fairly often, on a daily basis,
kids are in school on their phones
and teachers are trying to get them off their phones
and kids are like, "Why should..."
- Yes, no, no, I did a pretty similar one before.
Basically, the teacher would say,
"You can't use Instagram in school,"
and that they would be like,
"Hey teacher, leave those kids alone."
- Let them post during class time.
(laughs)
- You know what?
We gotta raise some money
and just get this commercial made.
The world needs it.
- How did this information get out?
This is public knowledge that they tried to get it and failed?
- Yeah, Roger Waters was doing a press conference
about Julian Assange and then he was like,
"And by the way, look at this email I got this morning,"
because he feels like Facebook is actually
an agent of censorship,
whereas he supports Julian Assange,
somebody who wants to get everything out there.
So yeah, he wasn't down with it.
But enough about Roger Waters and Facebook.
(laughs)
Tell us about your previous life in advertising.
How did you get into it?
- My claim to fame in that world
was doing things like talking lizards and frogs.
So the conversation you engaged me in
was a little more intellectual than what I did.
I did a lot of the Bowiser lizards back in the day
with the talking frogs and all,
which was an incredible run.
I had a 10-year run just doing Budweiser commercials
and things like that.
- Yeah, how does that even happen?
How do you become the Budweiser frogs guy?
- I knew when I was 15, I wanted to write comedy.
It's the only thing I was better at other people,
better than them at.
So I knew it was going to be comedy
and I just didn't see a way of moving
from New Jersey to LA at the time at that age.
So New York was advertising
and it just seemed like an approachable kind of way
to do what I was trying to do.
So I just moved 40 minutes up the turnpike
instead of flying across the country
and I started doing well at it pretty quickly.
So yeah, from a young age,
I started doing commercials for Staples and Little Saints
and things like that.
- So you're a funny guy, you're good at writing jokes,
but how do you actually go get the job?
You go interview at some Madison Avenue type company,
and you just give them a list of a bunch of jokes?
And they're just like, "All right,
you could probably make some commercials."
- It's a funny thing.
Someone was asking me about this recently.
For me, because that business, like anyone,
sometimes you got to know people, which I didn't.
No one in my family or in my world
was connected in any way.
But I was lucky enough to have someone's dad
give me a piece of advice.
And he said, "If you want to get into a business,
just start talking to people,
write letters to people that do the work that you admire."
And that's what I did.
I wrote like 50 letters to people
that were writing funny commercials in New York.
- What era is this?
- This era is the '90s.
- Like early '90s?
- Yeah, when you're writing letters, yeah.
- It's 1991.
Your friend's dad gives you some good advice.
So he'll just give you very general advice
about whatever you're interested in.
Sit your ass down, start writing letters.
So how do you even start?
So you would like see something on TV
and you have to look up an advertising firm.
And could you even find somebody's name?
- There's a book. - "Dear Mr. Draper,
I will laugh my ass off
at the latest Pepsi commercial."
Yeah, I'm sorry. You're saying there's a book.
- Yeah, there's a thing called the Red Book.
I don't know if they still have it.
I'm sure this stuff's all online.
But yeah, I just found the people that wrote the things
and I wrote them letters.
And all it took was for like three of those 50 to reply.
And then I was in.
And I'm off to the races 'cause I went into New York.
I bought a suit. I didn't own a suit at the time.
So I bought a suit to go in and meet this writer
who in retrospect is ridiculous.
The guy was probably in his late 20s
writing some random TV commercials.
And I bought a-- 'cause I didn't know any better--
I bought a suit to go see the guy.
And I show up and they're like,
"Where are you from? What are you doing?"
- 'Cause these guys are just wearing like--
they look like TV writers or something.
Just wearing like T-shirts and real casual.
- Exactly, yeah. Jeans and T-shirts.
And I walk in in my suit.
But that's all it took was one meeting.
And then I knew one person.
He introduced me to two more people.
And then once-- you know, I took night classes.
I would drive into the city and take night classes.
And before you know it, yeah, one thing leads to another.
So I always feel for people when they're not part of a world
or part of a business.
I know how hard it can be.
I tried to get an internship and, you know,
I got rejected from every big ad agency in New York
rejected me just for an internship to work for free.
- Jeez. - Yeah.
So once I was in, things kind of happened fast.
- Now it can be really hard to know where to begin
if you don't have somebody who can like really just cut through
and say, "No, no, no, you don't have to do all that.
Just talk to this person or at least go apply here."
So you're willing to go that hard to write 50 letters
and really get into this industry.
Do you have like a story like the commercial that changed my life?
Not really. I got to be honest.
When I was in high school, I wanted to write TV.
Like I said before, that's what I really wanted to do.
Advertising was just something I could achieve easier.
So it's kind of like a detour.
It ended up being like a 10-year detour that I took,
even though I loved it.
What would your dream job have been?
Like writing for SNL or something like that?
Yeah, SNL I wanted to do and really sitcoms.
I always wanted to write just comedy, character-driven comedy.
And that's what I ended up doing in advertising.
The stuff I did wasn't really selling stuff.
Those Budweiser commercials were just entertainment
for all intents and purposes.
So I managed to find a little corner of the industry
that served my purposes.
So it sounds like this corner of the industry,
your colleagues, the vibe,
is kind of how people describe some comedy writer's room.
Totally.
Well I'm waiting at the bus stop in downtown L.A.
I'd much rather be on a boardwalk on Broadway
Well I'm sitting here thinking just how sharp I am
I'm sitting here thinking just how sharp I am
I'm an under-assisted West Coast robo-man
All right, so now let's get to the frogs and lizards.
I was working in New York doing like a pizza pizza,
Little Caesars commercials.
That was like my first job.
And once that did well,
I probably got a little too confident too quickly
and tried to write a novel.
I went down to Key West and quit my job
and I was trying to write this novel.
And in retrospect, I was so naive and misguided,
but I was very excited at the time.
You didn't create Pizza Pizza.
No, no, no.
Cliff Freeman did, who sadly just passed away.
He was like a legend in the business
and a huge influence on me
because to what you were saying just a minute ago,
Ezra, he created this environment
where nothing but comedy could come out of it.
It was this place where everyone wanted to work.
One of the funniest commercials on TV.
It was a very small department, you know,
eight or ten writers.
And which agency was this?
This is Cliff Freeman and Partners,
which was down on the lower west side
over on Hudson and Houston.
And they were the place to be for comedy at the time.
So once you were in there,
it was just this environment where it's just like
every person you look around was funnier than the next,
all doing the best commercials at the time,
and everyone's just making each other laugh.
And it's just so supportive,
so encouraging, so inspiring.
Nothing but great stuff could come out of that environment.
And I always took that with me, as you know,
creative work in this field is less about
the work itself or the ideas you may have,
but it's giving a person that environment
that tees them up to succeed.
Giving a person a support structure that,
you know, they can actually shine.
Because it's easy to take a really talented person,
I've seen plenty of really talented people
fail and be frustrated and miserable
because the environment is wrong.
Yeah, I'm sure.
But you know, it's funny.
It's like, it's kind of blowing my mind because
obviously there's a lot of really funny, great commercials.
But this idea of like early 90s New York,
a lot of people who are interested in comedy,
all coming together at an ad agency
and being in kind of like the comedy room.
I guess I never really had a vision that that's how it worked.
Was that kind of unusual at Cliff Freeman?
No, I mean, any ad agency,
the creative department is its own thing.
And that's not every agency is a creative driven agency.
There's plenty of places making a ton of money.
And they couldn't care less how creative the work is.
But with, you know, the creative agencies,
it's this whole kind of subculture.
It's the stuff you probably know or might like
or see on the Super Bowl and stuff.
But yeah, that's very common.
The creative department is its own little world
and it's a tight world.
And there's often specifically like a kind of comedy crew.
So like somebody gets like a really serious ad
and they kind of go to a different group of people
and then Budweiser comes through and they're like,
all right, let's go to the comedy crew.
Well, it's not a comedy crew.
It's any agency, some are known for things.
Cliff Freeman was known for comedy.
That's all they did.
There was no serious person in that department.
I see.
So anybody, somebody who wanted to make a sentimental ad
for engagement rings would not go to that agency
in the first place.
I see.
But the place I went next was that kind of place,
Goodby Silverstein and Partners out in San Francisco.
And they were doing Got Milk,
which had just come out at the time.
They were known for serious work, funny, whatever.
So I became one of the funny people that was put on Budweiser.
And yeah, we sold that lizard campaign
that just took off on the Super Bowl.
And that just changed the trajectory of my career
because I was pretty young at the time.
But really walk us through that.
Well, first of all, I'm getting a little confused.
I remember the frogs.
I remember the lizards.
Which came first?
Did you work on both?
Yeah, that gets muddy with time.
The frogs were first.
They had done like five commercials,
maybe seven or so in Chicago where the work was being done.
Out in San Francisco, we had project work.
We weren't the real agency.
They were just throwing out projects here and there.
And we came up with the spoof of the frogs, essentially,
which was the lizards.
It was going to be a one-off.
They were going to run it during basketball playoffs.
And it did so well.
They said, let's make a bunch.
Let's shoot it for the Super Bowl.
So this kind of one-off random spoof
became the main campaign.
And it ended up being my career for the next 10 years
just because this thing hit.
It hit big, real.
So it was just good timing.
It's fair to say that you are the lizard guy.
Yes.
The lizard king.
You're the lizard king.
Me and my partner, Todd.
Everything's partnerships in that business,
art director and writer.
But yeah, me and my partner, Todd, created those.
And we ran with it as long as we could.
It treated me pretty well.
And it's what led me into this job.
It all just-- there's always one thing leading to the next.
Because those were so high profile.
People in LA started calling and saying,
hey, if you ever want to write TV shows, come on down.
Really?
Yeah.
So there is a lot of back and forth between entertainment
and advertising that somebody-- that's typical?
So much.
I mean, there's-- even just at that agency,
great people came out of there.
Like Scott Burns is a huge screenwriter now.
He writes half the Son of Perks movies.
And he worked at your--
He worked at the same agency.
Yeah, he did a gut milk spot right as I was arriving.
And then he took off and did that.
But no, advertising, there's a long--
because advertising draws a weird group of people.
People fall into it.
People have a lot of different skills and goals.
And it's kind of-- you can keep a foot in it
while you're doing other things.
So you actually-- if there was ever a list compiled,
you would recognize half the names.
And they all started in advertising.
It's-- people-- some people just jump out when they can.
I did it for a good stretch.
And-- but there's very talented people in the field.
You know, sometimes it gets a weird reputation.
Because in general, people don't care about commercials.
But I think they do.
I think they do more and more.
Yeah, they definitely do.
Yeah.
Yeah, it's changed over the years.
[MUSIC - "I'M A MAN"]
Now you're looking at a man that's getting kind of mad.
I had a lot to look, but it's all been bad.
No matter how I struggle and strive,
I'll never get out of this world alive.
My fishing pole's broke, the creek is full of sand.
My woman run away with another man.
No matter how I struggle and strive,
I'll never get out of this world alive.
My distant uncle passed away and left me quite a batch.
And I was living high until the fatal day.
Although you proved I wasn't born, I was only hatched.
Everything's against me and it's got me down.
If I jumped in the river, I would probably drown.
No matter how I struggle and strive,
I'll never get out of this world alive.
But so once you got the call from Hollywood, that was it?
You've never dipped your toe back in the advertising world?
Well, I kind of did both for a while.
I've had a weird career path in that way where they called
and I started keeping my day job while writing pilots.
So in the beginning, I would just write a pilot each year
while working in San Francisco.
And I had bought a boat at the time.
Advertising has some award shows with cash prizes.
We won a lot of money.
The award show has a cash prize?
Well, the awards industry in that business is particularly crazy
because the award shows make so much money off of people buying the awards
and people flying into the award shows.
Wait, the Cleos? Is that one of them?
That's one of many. That's one of many.
There's the one show, British D&AD, The Canned Lions.
I mean, you know, like similar to any award show where like the Oscars,
all this money is spent on the campaigns and that kind of stuff.
Yeah. Well, like for one, just any one given award show,
let's say it's The Canned Lions,
a good agency has to submit each commercial, each print ad.
It costs hundreds of dollars for each one.
So an agency might spend $100,000 in entry fees just to enter.
Whoa.
That's just one agency out of thousands.
If they win, you know, and they fly in, they have to pay to go to the thing.
If they win the award, you pay them a thousand bucks to actually get your award.
You have to buy the award.
So it's a money-making racket where each award show might be making,
I don't know, I'm guessing, but five or ten million dollars a year.
It's even more.
Whatever it is, it's enough so that there's one award show just for radio commercials
and we won the hundred grand.
And I was like, whatever, 26, 27.
I bought a boat.
I was new to California.
I was fresh from the East Coast and buying a boat, you know,
to have the first taste of money.
You won $100,000 at an advertising award show for the Budweiser Lizards?
Yeah, yeah. Exactly.
So what did you name the boat?
You know, I never officially named it.
I can be kind of lazy in that way.
So the boat was named Cruiser 2 after some guy's Basset Hound,
who I bought the boat from.
[laughter]
But the thing with boats, we could talk about boats all night,
because boats, you don't need any knowledge, you don't need any expertise,
you don't need a license.
There's no licensing system.
That was not my understanding.
You don't need a license to drive a boat.
You need to be 16.
Don't you have to study maritime law?
Nothing. They encourage it.
They encourage you to take a class.
But as long as you're 16,
it might be 18 now, but I think it was 16,
you can get yourself a boat and start cruising around,
because there are so few accidents and deaths,
it doesn't pay to have a licensing system in the state.
So you're telling me at age 16 you could drive a boat,
but you can't run for president?
Exactly.
There's a lot of idiots like myself that have boats
and are just out there cruising around.
But I had no knowledge of how to--
Wait, so when you were 26, did you have a car, an apartment?
I had those things, yeah.
Did you own an apartment?
No, no.
I didn't own anything except the boat.
You really wanted a boat.
Well, you can imagine, like I said,
being at a young age where I never had money,
and I'm in California,
and a bunch of money falls in your lap all at once.
It was a very fun thing.
I was very determined to do it.
It started out where I would just get 10 people in there
and cruise around the bay, around Alcatraz,
and zero knowledge of what I was doing.
I did ground the boat once.
We almost hit a rock outside of Alcatraz.
It was a ridiculous time.
Where did you dock it?
At first, it was down in Brisbane by the airport,
and then I got a spot where they made the stadium.
I got the boat slip right as they were building that stadium.
Years later, it was an incredible piece of real estate
because there's like a 15-year waiting list
to get into that marina.
So if you wanted to go to a baseball game,
I had a parking spot literally 20 yards from the stadium.
If you've ever been there,
the marina is literally where the home runs fly into the water.
Ah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
So, yeah, that was a crazy time.
You're just learning how to ride a boat,
taking a cruise or two out.
Wait, once you make it past the Golden Gate Bridge,
are you just in the Pacific Ocean?
I never went that far. I was terrified.
Yeah, to go out there would have been very--
I wouldn't have risked everyone's lives.
We just stayed in the bay before you get to the bridge,
and even that was not safe.
Just some plus one was like,
"Yeah, I ended up on the Budweiser lizard guy's boat,
and he crashed into Alcatraz.
I don't think he knew what he was doing.
I don't know. My friend invited me."
[laughter]
It was bad, yeah.
There were times when people had good reason
to be fearful for their lives.
Because if fog rolled in,
I wouldn't have known what to do.
I wouldn't have known where to call.
There were notoriously intense conditions.
That Bay Area weather--
It's very rough. Yeah, it's rough water.
We never had any serious accidents.
That was getting into the Internet money times.
To be in San Francisco,
it was just an especially heady time
of Internet money just starting to happen.
That was going to be a few years later.
It was just a lot of people with a lot of money,
advertising.
It happened to be a hot city to be in.
I was just at a moment in my life
where things were just starting to work.
Looking back, it was a really fun, crazy time for me.
I'm sure.
Were you technically the captain?
Yeah, I took great pride in telling people
I was the captain.
My understanding, because it comes up often now,
was that during Life and Times of Tim,
you lived on the boat.
As these myths can grow,
I worked on the boat.
I would go out-- That was my office.
I would go out there with my dog, Byron,
each morning.
That was just my work day.
I'd wake up--
Even though we were making the show in LA,
we stayed up in San Francisco for most--
We'd fly down here and there.
I'd go out there in the morning and write
all morning 'til lunch.
It's just the best place to have an office.
If you're a writer and you want solitude,
there's nothing better than just being at a marina,
like water is just naturally soothing.
Right.
Like anyone, I have a lot of ideas
in a bath or a shower.
Being on the water,
with no one to talk to you.
I wrote half of that show on that boat.
Do you still have Cruiser 2?
No, I just got rid of it a year ago,
maybe two.
It was just starting to deteriorate.
I wasn't going there enough.
I was going to just give it away
and junk it, essentially.
But two cops took it in.
I don't know what they're doing with it now,
but I guess cops have free slips.
They can get a free slip in San Francisco.
Two 16-year-old cops.
[laughs]
It was a happy ending
where these guys really wanted it
and I knew it wasn't going to just go to a junkyard.
I let it go.
It was an old fishing boat to start with.
Hold on. I'm sorry.
That's a funny perk for being a police officer.
[laughs]
You get a spot for your boat.
[laughs]
Maybe it's a Coast Guard thing.
I don't know.
That was the story I was told.
It wasn't a slip at the Good Marina.
It was a slip at Fisherman's Wharf,
which is a little more industrial,
all the fishing boats.
It's not a prime spot.
I guess every waterfront city
has its water police.
New York, they have police boats and stuff, right?
San Francisco.
Maybe these guys work for that department or something.
I don't know.
We never got too deep into it.
They were happy. I was happy.
I was looking for a happy ending.
You get attached to a boat
after all that time, a lot of memories.
The idea of going to the junkyard,
I wasn't pleased with.
But it's hard to give a boat away.
I learned a lot about that.
It's like that whole Cars for Kids thing.
No, it is.
It's a bit of a scam
if you ever research that stuff.
What is the deal with Cars for Kids?
Great ad, by the way. I don't know if that's one of yours.
No, that's not.
I shouldn't badmouth that particular one.
I know with boats...
What's the deal with the organization, though?
You said there's something...
It's essentially a used car company
fronting as the charity.
If you see an ad that says
"Give your boat to the SPCA,"
what really happens is
a used car company contacts you.
They only accept the boat
if they think they can turn a profit on it.
A lot of people get rejected and you can't give it away.
If they do take it,
it's only because they know for a fact
they can resell it for $5,000
and the charity gets
10% of their profit.
The SPCA will end up getting
$75
and they'll have a $10,000 boat.
And you gave it away for free.
Yeah.
Thinking you were giving it to charity.
Yeah, so I'm guessing Cars for Kids
is in that camp.
I shouldn't say that,
but it's one of these things.
That makes total sense because that's one of those commercials.
What is it? Is it 1-877-
Cars for Kids?
1-877-
Cars for Kids?
Because those ads are so creepy,
but it's always like kids playing
instruments and singing the song.
And I don't think they say anything about
the company. They just repeat the phone number.
And the only reason
you and I know that
jingles is because the media
buy is so huge
because someone's making a ton of money.
Someone is making so much
money they can run
that jingle enough to make it
household name,
Cars for Kids. It's not because the
charity is getting free air time.
Right. I can already picture
the article in The Atlantic
like, "Meet the Cars for Kids
billionaire."
Just like some dude who just amassed
so much money via cars.
Yeah, it's because nobody knows.
In theory, some money goes to a charity.
Alright, so we got to start
boats for kids.
Boats for
brats.
Let's get it going.
Do some big ad buys and we can
really take over the market.
If I had a boat
I'd go out on the ocean
And if I had a pony
I'd ride
him on my boat
And we could all together
go out on the ocean
And set me up
on my pony on my boat
If I were Rod Rogers
I'd sure not be single
I couldn't bring myself
to marry an old
damsel
It would just be me
and Trevor
We'd go riding through the moors
And we'd buy a boat
and on the sea we'd sail
And if I
had a boat
I'd go out on the ocean
And if I had a
pony I'd ride
him on my boat
And we could all together
go out on the ocean
And set me up
on my pony on my boat
So then what's been going on
between the
Life and Times of Tim, because that was on
2008-2012
and 10 year old Tom
What were you up to in that decade?
Yeah, that's some lost
years for me, because
in general
and in this business
it's tricky, all I do is
my own work, it's all I
do is just try to sell my own shows
and that's not an easy path
to take, because it's just hard
to do and you can work on something for years
and then it's a yes or a no
and for me it was four no's in a row
so
I spent like 8 years
just writing
and I've sold some
they were all good projects that people
enthusiastically bought
and paid me to write
but at the end of the day if they don't get on the air
it's just in the garbage
so it's like, it's as if I did nothing
if people ask me, it's like whatever happened
to that guy? But if you're selling shows
and writing them, you did do a lot of work
Oh yeah, that's the thing
It just didn't result in a show
Yeah, so I was
always sitting there like
I'm not getting credit for how close I'm getting
because it's not easy to
get that close
but yeah, it was basically four big projects
and I made some mistakes
along the way
but the first one, that business
is all kind of celebrity stuff
I did a project
with Casey and Ben Affleck
that was my first thing right after Tim
because it was exciting
and I was like, oh Casey seems like a great guy
You pitched it to me, remember?
Yeah, that's right, that's how we met, I met you doing that
and it could have been great
but in the end
I spent almost two years on it
and in the end it didn't go
you know
that group wasn't like a dream team of
comedy writing
as it turns out
and those guys obviously
are doing all kinds of other things
I'm the only one sitting there only doing that
Right
A lot of people probably would have taken staff jobs
most people write on other shows
and I've just never went down that road
Yeah, I'm sure you could have
Yeah, but alright, I get it, that makes total sense
You like to work on your own stuff
I don't like the structure
just like I was saying, I used to sit on the boat doing the advertising
I don't think I'd survive
in a writer's room
on someone else's show
sitting there from 10 to God knows what hours
I just wouldn't
survive, so I almost had no choice
but to try to sell my own thing
Right
It just takes time, you know, it takes forever
so
you learn stuff, you learn a lot
I'm a better person, I'm a better writer
I can make this show in a more confident way
When I made Tim, I was so
fresh in the business
and just going with my instincts
having no, just like with the boat
I had no idea what I was doing
but just ran a whole
department, a whole staff
making a TV show for HBO
Now at least I've been there
I'm still doing it in a similar way, but at least I know
second time you do it, you're a different person
than the first time
Right
You take everything as a learning experience
that's all you can do, if you spend two years on a project
and get close and they say
"Nah, if you're just depressed
what are you gonna do?"
It's no way to move forward
Right, you gotta move on to the next thing
Yeah, you learn
and now when I'm sitting here in this
moment, I feel like it all
happened for a reason
I almost didn't retrospect
I'm happy none of those shows went, because this is the one
I'm meant to do
I feel like fate leads you to something
Right, and I'm sure in all those years you also
were living your life and having fun
taking the boat out
Yeah Are you gonna get a new boat?
No, I don't
think... a boat is so much
a boat sounds
like fun, within a year
I realized, "Oh, I don't like owning boats
I like sitting in the back of boats
with a beer
Owning a boat is a whole other thing
it's not fun at all
When you're going out, and there's eight people
and your response
it's like, all you're doing is looking around
make sure no one's falling off, make sure you're not gonna hit anything
Right, isn't it also
constant maintenance?
It should be constant maintenance, but since
I didn't do the maintenance
the boat deteriorated, which made
the boat unsafe, and it was a
downward spiral of
the boat getting
in worse condition, my knowledge
not increasing
and it just turned into my office
so that's what I... I just ended up
saying, "Hey, if it floats, I'm happy
as long as it doesn't sink, we're good
but yeah, no more boats"
The way you talk about it, it's so romantic
to spend that much time on the
sea, like... but so you can
do you still get out onto the open
water, you just charter a boat
or you just take a ride on
somebody else's boat?
No, I've got very few boats in my life
anymore, it was... sometimes things
are just a moment in time
You don't live in the Bay Area anymore?
No, we still have a place
there, but it's mostly LA
so yeah, it was
the boat... there was not
enough time spent there
but yeah, sometimes it's just
you gotta... I like to do
like I said, I like to do what my instincts
are telling me in any given moment
and back then, that was 100%
what I was meant to do
now, I don't even think about it
Hey Steve, I'm
Seinfeld2000, I run the Twitter account
@Seinfeld2000
I'm just a big fan of the show
I love Tim and
the new one, I just wanted to tell you
that I googled it and
Karts4Kids also takes boats
Oh really?
Yeah, they take boats and they also take
real estate
Really? Interesting. You take real estate?
Yeah, apparently, according to
Wikipedia, it's real estate cars
bread and butter is cars, but
there's real estate boats as well
What the hell?
Interesting
So you can just start any kind of business
they wouldn't take your boat
No, no one. I've made every
call you could make
♪ I'm totally meek, I've got no wonder ♪
♪ Mellowed out chatting of those I used to hate ♪
♪ The feeling that we're lost will always fade ♪
♪ I present no explanations ♪
♪ Can't expect our tired patience ♪
♪ To say she ain't for long ♪
♪ The iron lies are true ♪
♪ We can sip when we want ♪
♪ Disciples of the flow ♪
♪ We can flout anywhere ♪
♪ Whenever there's a drought ♪
♪ I listed the puddles ♪
♪ Proven to better cope ♪
♪ Lived a van out from within ♪
- Yes, so Steve, obviously, or maybe you get that on TC,
we tend just to talk about random stuff,
but just tell us a little bit about the new show.
I mean, Nick kind of teed it up before you got on,
so the listeners already have a sense of the show,
but just tell us a little bit from your perspective
about "10-Year-Old Tom" and everybody's gotta go
check it out, just what they should expect
or what you want people to know about it.
- It's funny, when it came out,
I had my other show I did, "Lifetime's a Tim,"
and I love that, it's got its own cult following.
And when we made this, I was just making it.
I was just doing whatever I thought was right
in this moment for me right now.
And it's funny, when it came out,
I was so surprised at just how much people connected
with the old one.
It's like, it's the dominant story in a lot of the reviews
and in a lot of social media stuff.
It's just like the presence of the old shows
in a good way, just really there,
where people just are really connecting the dots.
And creatively, it's not too different.
If you ever saw the old one, it was a little more crude.
And now, like I said, I've had a little experience,
so the new one is a little more polished.
It's just whatever my instincts are telling me today.
But it's been a cool thing,
because it becomes more of a body of work
and more of an expansion on something I started
at a certain time.
So I really kind of, and I love it,
'cause the network, they put my old show,
it hadn't been, it's an old story in itself,
but Tim wasn't on HBO for many years,
and they just relaunched it when they launched my new one.
So all of a sudden, I've got two shows out there.
So it's been very exciting.
- Right, so there's probably a lot of people
seeing "Life and Times of Tim" for the first time,
'cause finally it's streaming.
- Yeah, so it's this weird thing
where these things don't have a shelf life on them anymore.
So just the fact that it's out there,
for a lot of people, it might as well be a brand new show.
And with the new one,
a lot of people are discovering that first
and then saying, "Oh, you have an old show.
"I didn't even know that."
So it's like it all just gets tossed in the mix together.
And it's been a real pleasant surprise.
But yeah, if you ever compare the two,
it's a similar character, similar look,
and it's just as a little kid.
And it's actually more of a profound difference
than I think I even realized.
I write a lot of underdog characters.
I write a lot of outsider type characters.
And doing it as a kid with the whole theme of this show,
the whole thing just has more resonance, I think,
and more of a point, a little more poignancy at times.
It's like, to do, you know, my old show,
the premise was more or less just
the world is (beep) on this guy over and over.
You know, a good guy just can't get a break.
Somehow the world will conspire against you.
And then this is more about a, you know,
when I pitched it, it was really, you know,
how does a kid grow up these days
without being corrupted by all the grownups around them?
And with that as a question to jump off from,
it just infuses the whole show with a little more meaning.
Searching for the subject matter isn't just what's funny.
It's like, what's relevant?
What's the point?
'Cause, you know, this whole thing came out
of looking at the headlines.
And it's like, when I look at the world,
it's such a different thing than it was when I was a kid.
Like for a kid to look at, process the world,
it's just so profoundly different to me.
It's an interesting topic,
whether you're making a comedy show or not.
What does a kid make of it when they look at the TV
or whatever, the internet,
and every politician is overtly corrupt.
Every business leader, half the athletes, religious figures.
It's like, you can't turn to a pillar of society
without seeing a very obvious example of someone misbehaving.
And when I was a kid, I didn't see that.
You know, most people didn't.
So to me, it's really infused the whole writing of the show
with, I think, something needed.
So it's just as funny and stupid.
You know, if you watch the show,
it won't sound quite as intellectual as what I'm saying now,
but it's there, it's in the writing.
It's what makes me choose the subject matter.
And so hopefully that adds up.
And when people watch it,
it's not like a flimsy, you know, animated, you know, cartoon.
I treat this stuff like I would a live action show.
So I'm just trying to sort through it in my own way
and make sense of the world in my own way.
I guess a lot of it's looking back on my own childhood
and things come out in the writing.
So there's a long-winded answer, I guess.
But it's, you know, it's interesting
when you stumble on something
and maybe it took me a while to get there,
but it really matters to me.
Is I really care about the character and the stories
and hopefully people pick up on that.
- Well, that's great.
- Yeah.
- And it's awesome that both shows are kind of like together
and people can see the old work and the new work,
watch them whichever way they're finding in.
- Especially it's been overwhelming
'cause to go from eight years of trying
and aspiring and failing to just an avalanche of positivity.
It's like, whoa, what just happened?
Is like, people seem to be liking the new show
and what's fine in the old show.
And it's just like overnight snap of the finger
and everything's working again.
So it's been a great couple of weeks here.
- That's awesome.
Everybody's got to check it out.
And thanks so much for coming on, Steve.
The last thing I'll say,
I don't know if this will take you anywhere,
but I have your bio in front of me as we speak.
And I noticed you're exactly one month older than Jay-Z.
Do you...
(laughing)
So you're almost exactly the same age.
- Is that what the note...
Is that actually like,
is that what Matt wrote on the note?
(laughing)
- No, no, it doesn't say that in the notes.
No, it doesn't say that in the notes.
It says Steve's birthday.
And I know that Jay-Z was also born in late 1969.
You and Jay got in at the buzzer
to be children of the sixties, but you know.
- That's right.
That's right.
- Clearly most of your childhood
would have been in the seventies and eighties,
but yeah, he was born in the famously,
he was born in early December, 1969.
- That's right.
- Are you a fan?
Do you think of him as being like,
oh yeah, it's my generation?
- Absolutely, yeah.
I'm definitely a fan.
Yeah, I didn't even think about how old he is,
but now that you say it, yeah, that feels right.
I'll take that.
- Should we get Steve to request his favorite Jay-Z song?
Since we play music occasionally on the show,
is there any Jay-Z song that comes to mind?
I feel like this is almost like...
- And not just your favorite,
but one that really embodies your generation
of men born in late 1969.
- Maybe my first song,
maybe that's kind of thematically tied
into what we've been talking about.
- Oh yeah, that's a good one.
Well, thanks so much, 10 year old Tom,
and don't forget about the Life and Times of Tim
now streaming on HBO Max.
Thanks so much, Steve.
I hope you'll call in again.
It's been great talking to you.
- The lizard king.
- Yeah, no, thank you.
- The lizard king himself.
And we didn't even get to talk about New Jersey, which...
- Okay, we'll save that.
- We'll save that for next time.
- But no, it's been great talking to you.
I really appreciate you having me,
and this has been a real thrill.
I'm a big fan, and this has been great.
- Oh, that's awesome.
We're thrilled to have you.
All right, have a good one.
- All right, thanks.
See you guys.
- Thanks, Steve.
- All right, peace.
♪ Y'all wanna know why he don't stop ♪
♪ Y'all wanna know why he don't flop ♪
♪ Let me tell you P-E for why ♪
♪ Came from the bottom of the block ♪
♪ I, when I was born, it was swarm ♪
♪ I was never gonna be ♪
♪ Had to prove that I'm a city ♪
♪ I was, had to get my pride ♪
♪ Pride on, eyes on the prize ♪
♪ Shawn knew I had to, had to, had to get these chips ♪
♪ Had to make moves like Elijah Warn ♪
♪ Started out selling, graduated to a ♪
♪ No exaggeration, my infatuation with the strip ♪
♪ Legendary like a schoolboy ♪
♪ Crush a million in every, every chick ♪
♪ That's how schoolboy got whipped and got left on some ♪
♪ Just me, myself, and I on some ♪
♪ True boy, had to voice to a place of ♪
♪ To a place of no return ♪
♪ Had to play with fire and get burned ♪
♪ Only way the boy ever gonna learn ♪
♪ Had to lay Wade in the cut ♪
♪ 'Til I finally got my turn ♪
♪ Now I'm on top in the spot that I earned ♪
♪ It's my leave ♪
♪ It's my pain and my struggle ♪
♪ The song that I sing to you is my everything ♪
♪ Treat my first like my last ♪
♪ And my last like my first ♪
♪ And my first is the same as when I came ♪
♪ It's my joy and my tears ♪
♪ And the laughter it brings to me is my everything ♪
♪ Like I never rode in a limo ♪
♪ Like I just dropped flows to a demo ♪
♪ Like it's '92 again, man ♪
♪ And I got O's in the rental ♪
♪ Back in the stool again, no problemo ♪
♪ It's a whole lot simpler when you think back ♪
♪ You thought that you would never make it this far ♪
♪ Then you take advantage of the luck you handed ♪
♪ Of the talent you've been given ♪
♪ Ain't no half-seven, ain't no, no slippin' ♪
♪ Ain't no different from a block of city ♪
♪ Gotta get it while the gettin's good ♪
♪ Gotta strike while the iron's hot ♪
♪ When you stop, then you gotta bid it ♪
♪ Good riddance, goodbye ♪
♪ This is my second major breakup ♪
♪ My first was with a paycheck ♪
♪ With a hooptie, a cook pot, and a gig ♪
♪ This one's with the stew, with the stay ♪
♪ With the fortune, maybe not the fortune ♪
♪ But certainly not me ♪
♪ It's my life, my pain and my struggle ♪
♪ The song that I sing to you is my everything ♪
♪ Treat my first like my last ♪
♪ And my last like my first ♪
♪ And my first is the same as when I came in ♪
♪ It's my joy and my tears ♪
♪ And my laughter it brings to me ♪
♪ It's my everything ♪
♪ Treat my first like my last ♪
♪ And my last like my first ♪
♪ And my first like the first song I sang ♪
- Well, thank you to Steve Dildaren.
We lost Jake.
Nick just went to the bathroom.
Just me and you, Seinfeld.
That's fun.
- It's intimate.
What did I miss?
I had to jump off from the Steve.
Can you give me like a recap
of the first like 40 minutes of that?
- We did a solid 38 minutes on his boat.
- Okay.
- Well, it's no longer his boat,
but it's called Cruiser Two,
which he bought after he won a cash prize
at an advertising awards show.
- Ooh.
- Boat culture is interesting,
especially like urban boat culture,
'cause he kept it in the Bay Area.
You know, obviously there's like yacht life,
billionaires and people who sail boats all around the world,
but then there's also just like people have like
little boat that you take out and drink beers on.
It's kind of like he said,
he never even took it out outside of the East Bay,
basically.
- Yeah, I was in Marina Del Rey a couple of months ago
and there's this giant dock area with a ton of boats.
- Right, right.
- They just seem to be ported there.
They don't really seem to go anywhere.
And I always wonder what they're up to.
Where are they actually going with those boats?
- Well, I guess you could sail to Catalina.
That's like a short trip down there.
Yeah, and I think a lot of people just,
I guess some people are into just,
you keep the boat docked and you just sit on it.
You just sort of gently float with the movement of the water.
- And you drink beers.
I think it's kind of like,
it's like places that don't have floating dock culture.
If you don't live by a lake,
you could just go sit on a boat in the ocean.
Yeah, or I guess you go fishing.
Some people are into fishing.
- Have you ever been on a cruise?
- No, I've never been on a cruise.
- No.
- Neither, yeah.
Honestly, I don't really see the appeal.
It makes me nervous,
the idea of being isolated on the water for such a long.
- Did you guys see that documentary on HBO?
For some reason, no one talked about it,
but it was unbelievable.
- Oh, there's a cruise documentary?
- The COVID cruise.
- Oh, wait, you know, I heard about that a long time ago.
- No one's seen it.
- Didn't OPN do the music?
- Did he?
I didn't even notice that.
Maybe he did.
- I have a vague memory of talking to him a long time ago
and just being like, what are you working on?
And I thought he's,
I'm pretty sure he said I'm doing some movie
about the Japanese, the princess COVID cruise.
- The last cruise, yeah.
- The princess.
- Yeah, did it have cool, vibey music?
- I think so.
Honestly, I think it did.
It had to, but you guys need to see this.
- Yeah, I want to see that.
- Yeah, he did.
Daniel did it.
- Yeah, yeah, I heard about that.
Okay.
- That's wild.
- It's time for the top five,
five on iTunes.
- So without Jake,
we're just going to burn through the top five songs
on iTunes.
We're not going to do a comparative one.
No, we should probably should ask Steve to stay.
But, you know, we might be going into some weird,
uncharted territory.
No ironic pun intended,
but this might be uncharted territory
as we go through the charts.
Just 'cause we've been staying away
from like the current top five.
It's just felt so kind of like random.
It's just, but I'm sure there's good stuff.
The number five song right now on the iTunes chart.
The artist is called "Why Don't We"
and the song is called "Love Back".
"Why Don't We" is a boy band from Los Angeles.
♪ I still got your halo hanging on the corner of my bed ♪
♪ But when I look closer that (indistinct) ♪
- Is that a Sugar Ray reference?
- Well, what's the Sugar Ray reference?
- Halo.
- Oh yeah, like every morning there's a halo.
- Yeah.
♪ It tastes like put it on my tab ♪
♪ Gave you my money and my time ♪
♪ You can keep all that, all that ♪
♪ Baby, I just want my love back ♪
♪ I'd love to love someone new ♪
♪ But I gave it all to you ♪
♪ Honey, I just want my love back ♪
♪ If you're not gonna be the one ♪
- What do you think Jake would say about this?
- I love it.
- You know, I feel like early Jake
would just always be like, "Sucks."
But then he's thrown some curve balls lately.
I could also just picture him and be like,
"Honestly, I'm in."
And be like, "What?"
You never know, I don't know if fatherhood's mellowed Jake,
but he might be like, "Catchy song, great beat.
"Love these guys."
- I think this is too down the middle for Jake.
- Yeah.
- Yeah, I think you're right.
♪ Showed you what heaven could taste like ♪
♪ Put it on my table ♪
♪ Give you my money ♪
♪ And my time, you can keep all that ♪
♪ Baby, I just want my love back ♪
♪ I'd love to love someone new ♪
♪ But I gave it all to you ♪
♪ Honey, I just want my love back ♪
♪ If you're not gonna be the one ♪
♪ At least give me back my love ♪
- You wanna know something?
I got an idea.
I think this top five is gonna be us just talking
about what we think Jake will think.
- Guessing what Jake would say?
- Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- And then next week we'll play it.
- All right.
- Cool, I like that.
- Yeah, but okay, if we're actually,
I would guess that Jake will just be like, "Eh."
You would hate it.
- Forgettable.
- I just remember when Jake,
when Jake wrote for Madonna a couple years ago,
he was like, "Yeah, Madonna's dope."
Like, do you remember that?
I was surprised by that.
That was like a first, like--
- Jake was very pro-Madonna.
- Yeah, for some reason that surprised me.
- Yeah, I think he'd think it's down the middle
and there's nothing in the lyrics that sort of,
you know, like the Olivia Rodrigo,
obviously not down the middle,
but even the lyrics, the storytelling, the drive,
like he responded to all of it.
I don't really know what this guy's talking about.
I think he would just be, "Eh."
- I think Jake would probably be kind of amused by the name.
Why don't we?
Like--
- Yes.
- Is it spelled, by the way, is it spelled like normal
or is it like letter Y?
- No, it's, yeah, it's, no, no, it's the words,
but there's no question mark.
I would have thought it was pretty cool
if there was a question mark.
It's just, why don't we?
- Yeah, sometimes those acts, they'll drop the punctuation.
Like, do you remember when Pink used to be P,
exclamation mark, and A?
- Oh yeah, she doesn't do that anymore?
- I feel like she's just, she switched to an I.
- Sell out.
The number four song is Elton John
and Dua Lipa with Coldheart, the Panau remix.
Okay, so this song is on,
Elton dropped a collaboration album
called The Lockdown Sessions.
- Do we know how Jake feels about Elton John in general?
Fan, I would imagine.
- Yeah, I'm sure Jake would definitely love some Elton John.
- Yeah, early Elton John.
- Didn't he talk about Rocketman when Rocketman came out?
Didn't he like walk in on the band or something?
- Watch the film, was he a fan?
- Yeah.
- Are you making that up?
I'm confusing it with yesterday.
♪ And then distant from ♪
♪ Cold, cold heart ♪
♪ Heart and body ♪
- I think he'd like this.
- Although I feel like,
I could also see Jake not liking auto-tuned Elton.
Can you just see Jake just being like,
auto-tuned Elton, come on.
Weak.
And we'd be like, oh, come on, Jake.
He's just trying something new.
♪ Been a long, long time ♪
♪ Touchdown brings me ♪
♪ Not again to fight ♪
♪ Another man, I think I am at home ♪
- What is this called?
This is like an interpolation
when they'll bring in just a part of another song like that
and re-sing it.
- I guess the remixer, Panao,
mashed it up with some of his other songs,
such as Rocketman, Sacrifice, Kiss the Bride,
and Where's the Shura.
- Oh, it's a whole mashup.
♪ Cold heart ♪
♪ Heart down by you ♪
♪ Some things look better, baby ♪
♪ Just pass it through ♪
- I mean, I love Elton.
I'm glad to see him.
- I honestly think his voice,
his way of singing,
which is still very Elton over this kind of thing,
is weird.
I like it.
It's notable.
- Isn't he, he's on the Lil Nas X album, isn't he?
- Yeah.
I mean, he's always doing cool stuff.
He was on the Kanye album a long time ago.
- Oh.
Him and Eminem at the VMAs.
♪ Well I thought it but I kept it in ♪
♪ Cold heart ♪
♪ Heart down by you ♪
- I don't see Jake liking this.
I'm sure Jake would be like,
"Give me a Tiny Dancer.
Give me a Benny and the Jets.
Not feeling this.
No soul."
- So the first one is forgettable.
This one is negative.
- Well, I just think Jake would bring negative energy to it
because he loves the Tasteful Palette of the '70s.
Elton is an iconic Tasteful '70s artist.
So I just feel like Jake wouldn't know how to handle,
Jake wouldn't like the music.
You know what I mean?
I think Jake would be pro-Elton,
but like wouldn't get the remix element.
- We'll see.
We'll see.
I like it.
I love seeing Elton back on the charts.
♪ Oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh ♪
♪ Oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh ♪
- Ooh.
I've actually been wanting to hear this song.
I heard about this, but I have not heard this.
This is major.
Oh man, I'm almost, well, yeah,
we'll go back through this next time with Jake
because this is major.
Coldplay and BTS came together
for a song called "My Universe."
It debuted at number one on the Billboard Hot 100,
giving BTS their sixth chart topper
and Coldplay's second after "Viva La Vida" in 2008.
"My Universe" was first revealed
as part of the track listing for "Music of the Spheres."
That's Coldplay's next album.
I mean, just wow.
- I obviously know this isn't built to fill,
but I do think that would have been,
that would be pretty epic.
♪ To put you first ♪
♪ You, you, you are my universe and I ♪
♪ In the night I lie and look up at you ♪
♪ When the morning comes I watch you rise ♪
♪ There's a paradise they couldn't capture ♪
- Jake might like this one.
It's kind of like fun '80s.
♪ Fly to you ♪
♪ I don't forget things like this ♪
♪ I meet you with a smile ♪
- Do we ever read about his take on,
like, does he like Coldplay?
Is he, he's kind of neutral to Coldplay, right?
- It's a good question.
I'm sure he likes some songs.
♪ To put you first ♪
♪ You, you, you are my universe ♪
♪ And I just want to be with you ♪
♪ I'm not afraid of the dark ♪
♪ I'm not afraid of the shadows ♪
♪ And I'm sad that we can't be together ♪
♪ Because, because you come from different sides ♪
♪ You, you, you are my universe and I ♪
♪ Just want to put you first ♪
♪ You, you, you are my universe ♪
- I feel like this song will probably
make Jake get into some, like,
I bet Jake will ask a lot of questions about, like,
wait, what is Coldplay?
Like, 'cause Jake likes bands,
so he'll probably be like some, like,
did the drummer play on this?
I think he'll want to, like, look under the hood
at this song.
I think he'll be positive,
but kind of want to get into, like,
what does it really mean?
♪ You, you, you are my universe ♪
- Have we heard "GTS" yet?
♪ I won't let up, be strong ♪
- Oh, no, Jake's been very positive about BTS in the past.
(singing in foreign language)
- I mean, this is the most interesting part of the song.
(singing in foreign language)
♪ We are made of each other, baby ♪
♪ You, you, you are my universe ♪
♪ Just wanna hold you first ♪
♪ You, you, you are my universe ♪
♪ My universe ♪
♪ My universe ♪
♪ My universe ♪
♪ My universe ♪
- I think Jake will be down.
It's got a good vibe.
All right, the number two song.
I don't know if we've heard this yet.
Is this a new one from Ed Sheeran?
It's called "Shivers."
This took Ed three days to write, which is long for him.
♪ I took an arrow to the heart ♪
♪ I never kissed a mouth that tastes like yours ♪
♪ Strawberries and a something more ♪
♪ Ooh yeah, I want it all ♪
♪ Lipstick on my guitar ♪
♪ Fill up the engine and drive it far ♪
- Lipstick on my guitar.
♪ Go to dance and under the star ♪
- Let me look this up.
- I don't understand how that happens.
- Yeah, lipstick on my guitar.
- What is that situationally?
♪ I wanna drink that smile ♪
♪ I wanna feel like high ♪
♪ Like my soul's on fire ♪
♪ I wanna stay up all day and all night ♪
♪ Yeah, you got me singing like ♪
♪ Ooh, I love it when you do it like that ♪
♪ And when you're close up, give me the shivers ♪
♪ Oh baby, you wanna dance 'til the sunlight cracks ♪
♪ And when they say the party's over ♪
♪ Then we'll bring it right back ♪
♪ And they'll say ♪
♪ Ooh, I love it when you do it like that ♪
♪ And when you're close up, give me the shivers ♪
♪ Oh baby, you wanna dance 'til the sunlight cracks ♪
♪ And when they say the party's over ♪
♪ Then we'll bring it right back ♪
♪ Into the car ♪
♪ On the backseat in the moonlit dark ♪
♪ Wrap me up between my legs and arms ♪
♪ Ooh, I can't get enough ♪
♪ You know you could tear me apart ♪
♪ Put me back together and take my heart ♪
♪ I never thought that I could love this hard ♪
♪ Ooh, I can't get enough ♪
♪ Ooh, you got me feeling like ♪
♪ I wanna be that guy ♪
♪ I wanna kiss your eyes ♪
♪ I wanna drink that to smile ♪
♪ I wanna feel like high ♪
♪ Like my soul's on fire ♪
♪ I wanna stay up all day and all night ♪
♪ Yeah, you got me singing like ♪
- I still don't understand this lipstick on my guitar.
- All right, let's go back to the beginning.
I took an arrow to the heart.
I never kissed a mouth that tastes like yours.
Strawberries and something more.
Ooh, yeah, I want it all.
Lipstick on my guitar.
Ooh, fill up the engine, we can drive real far.
Go dancing underneath the stars.
Ooh, yeah, I want it all.
Yeah, you're right, that does kind of stand out
'cause the beginning's pretty,
well, I don't wanna say straightforward.
He's using poetic language,
but the rest of that verse is,
he's talking about falling madly for somebody.
I mean, maybe he's just saying their first kiss
was just crazy, he's never felt this way before.
There's such a deep attraction.
And then just the night's getting wild.
She's kissing his guitar.
Or maybe she's just like, she's just-
- She's a total freak.
- They're making out and then she's just said,
"Wait, where's your guitar?"
And he's like-
- Are you going to play something?
- It's leaned up in the corner in that case
and she takes it out, she just starts kissing it
and he's like, "Um, all right."
- I got a theory.
- Yeah?
- Ed Sheeran's a father now, right?
So maybe this is just like an image,
like how kids like to get into everything.
Maybe there's just been a little one running around
just rubbing lipstick on stuff.
And this is more of a domestic scene.
- Oh, okay, so you're saying Ed Sheeran's
cheating on his wife, family's out of town.
- Why is he?
- No, no, I heard you saying,
you're saying Ed Sheeran's cheating on his wife,
the family's out of town, he brings this girl home,
he's like quickly slamming down all the pictures
of his kids and she's like, "Wait, didn't I read
"that you're married with kids?"
And he's just like, "No."
And then she's like, "Oh, okay."
And she's like, "You want to play me something
"on the guitar?"
He pulls the guitar out, as Seinfeld said,
the kids had been in there, took mommy's lipstick
and they made a whole mess and she's like,
"Ugh, what's going on in here?"
And he's like, "I did that."
- And now he's got lipstick all over his hands.
(laughing)
Wipes it on his shirt.
- I just put some lipstick on my guitar.
There's also like a lot of Duplos in there.
What's that about?
And he's like, "You know what, quit touching my stuff."
Are you feeling what I'm feeling?
Stop talking about that.
Okay, this is kind of provocative material from Ed,
but I like the song though, I like the pizzicato string.
Actually, Matt, can you throw on the song,
"Electricity" by Orchestral Maneuvers in the Dark?
You guys know OMD?
They're like big new wave.
Their big hit was,
♪ If you leave, I won't cry ♪
♪ I won't say ♪
But before that, the music was like a little bit darker.
It kind of has the same chord progression.
By the way, Ed, I'm not making a,
I'm only playing it 'cause in a positive way,
you made me think of it.
Classic chord progression, everybody uses it.
♪ All I want is a sense of energy ♪
♪ The ultimate discovery ♪
♪ Electric blues beat ♪
♪ Never more than you can see ♪
This song really holds up.
This song kind of sounds like MGMT.
Totally.
♪ Nuclear and H-E-B ♪
♪ Common fuels and promising ♪
♪ Wasted electricity ♪
I feel like this could go viral on TikTok.
Seinfeld, you're a social media guy.
Do you think this could go viral on TikTok?
I'm surprised that it hasn't yet.
I just think people don't know this song.
Nobody's talking about OMD anymore.
Okay, if anybody's listening is big on TikTok,
make up some dance and do some kind of edit thing
to the beat and you know.
(laughing)
You know, when the marimba comes in.
You know, just whatever the hell you do.
Honestly, this seems like one of those ones
that you can just bounce your head.
And be like, what's the dance?
You just bounce your head back and forth.
♪ All we want is some energy ♪
♪ Even bad electricity ♪
♪ All we need is a little bit ♪
♪ A people matter away ♪
♪ To just change a thing or two ♪
♪ The alternative is all we want ♪
♪ The final source of energy ♪
♪ Solar electricity ♪
- Anyway, that's OMD with electricity.
Pairs nicely with Ed Sheeran's shivers.
The number one song which we'll play you out on
is, 'cause Jake's already actually commented on this,
Walker Hayes, "Fancy Like."
This is a song about Applebee's and stuff.
I don't really wanna talk about this song again,
but it's a fun song to go out on.
All I'll say is this,
now this song would be good for an Instagram commercial.
Can't you just picture like all the different pictures
of people out having a good time?
Like going to Wendy's, jumping in their truck,
having like a couple kissing,
a bunch of people having fun at Applebee's,
just like, and all the people are smashing the like.
- Did we talk about how this was turned
into an Applebee's ad?
- Oh, it actually did become an Applebee's ad?
Oh, so it's too late for Instagram.
- They manifested it.
- Yeah, with featuring videos from TikTok users
dancing to the song, including Hayes and his daughter.
It's part of the restaurant chain's
celebrate date night across America campaign.
America's back, date night is back, masks optional.
- Wait, is that part of the ad campaign?
- Leave your mask at home, date night is back.
- All right.
- I'm gonna leave you with two things.
One, that at the time of this song,
the Oreo shake had been discontinued
from the Applebee's menu.
- Really?
- But due to the popularity of this song,
they brought it back.
- Wow.
- That's the first.
The second thing I wanna leave you with,
and we'll see how this affects next week's Jake's response,
is that I texted him asking, "Do you like Coldplay?"
And his answer was, "No, not really."
(laughing)
- Okay.
- Not that he wouldn't have a change of heart with Elton,
I'm just saying.
- Interesting.
- The answer, "No, not really."
- Okay, we will see.
Jake must like a few.
All right, another TC, see you guys in two weeks.
Thanks to Steve Dildarian.
Peace.
♪ She don't need it in the kitchen like radio slows down ♪
♪ Box one then a up do goes down ♪
♪ Hey, yeah we fancy like Applebee's on a date night ♪
♪ Got that Burberry Street stay with the Oreo shake ♪
♪ And some whipped cream on the top too ♪
♪ Two straws, one shot, girl I got you ♪
♪ Bougie like Natty in the styrofoam ♪
♪ Squeak, squeaking in the truck bed all the way home ♪
♪ Alabama jammer, she my Dixieland delight ♪
♪ That's how we do, how we do, fancy like ♪
- Time Crisis.
- With Ezra Koenig.
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