Episode 159: Grateful Genres with Kelefa Sanneh
Links
Transcript
Transcript
Time Crisis back again. This week we talk Rockabilia, the Grateful Dead's latest
auction at Sotheby's. We're joined by Kellef Hasane to talk about his new book
about musical genres. All this plus Coldplay, BTS, Ed Sheeran, Elton John,
Dua Lipa, and Why Don't We. This is Time Crisis with Ezra Koenig.
Time Crisis back again, episode 159 if you're counting. We were just discussing
the fact that we have well over 300 hours of content on this program, which I
guess is a lot in one in a sense and also not a lot in another sense.
Yeah, compared to other shows it's pretty modest. Anyway, we got a great guest this
week. We got Kellef Hasane, major rock critic. Actually I shouldn't call him rock
critic, he's music critic. In fact, he's got a new book out called Major Labels of
History of Popular Music in Seven Genres, only one of which is rock. The other are
R&B, country, punk, hip-hop, dance, and pop. So we'll have plenty to talk about with him.
Although rock was the first chapter. Rock was the first chapter and we don't want
to spoil the book so we might have to focus a little bit on rock. But in the
meantime, speaking of rock, one of the pillars of this program, there was just a
Grateful Dead auction. It's making some waves on the TC thread. This was an
interesting auction because there was a lot of like pretty like mundane gear. I
mean some cool stuff, but like pedals, road cases, random speakers. Pedals seem
cool. If I was gonna go in on anything, you know, obviously the guitars are gonna
cost a fortune. Yeah, there are a couple of guitars. And actually as it turns out, the pedals are gonna cost a fortune too.
But I guess everything cost a fortune. Wait, is there a way to look up the final
prices? Probably if you go to Sotheby's.com/gratefuldead. Okay, we can see
how much everything sold for now. Yeah, I looked at it ahead of time. I think we
texted. I think I was in Hawaii still. I was like, dude, are you gonna go in on
this Q-tron pedal? Well, it was interesting to see like what was already
kind of popping off. Like the pedals were already kind of going for a lot and it
was unclear what a good deal would be. I mean, it ain't cheap, none of it. And I'd
had a slight, I don't know if it's quite as cool, but a few years ago there was a
Neil Young auction. Also like a major auction house was doing it. Just Neil
like just getting rid of a lot of stuff. It was like music gear, his like train
sets, random clothes. That auction was funny because it was a little bit like,
it had a tiny bit of like this exciting rock history moment of like Neil Young
going to auction with some of his legendary gear. But then it also had a
little bit of just like a yard sale vibe. I might be wrong here, but I have a vague
memory of like scrolling through the the Neil Young auction catalog and I feel
like getting to a certain point and it was just kind of like plaid wool rich
shirt circa 2005, size large. I'm pretty sure there was just like some kind of
like newish clothes. It wasn't even like, you know, t-shirt that Neil wore on stage
that you can see in this photograph with CSNY 1972. Some of it really did seem a
little bit like he like looked through his closet and just like pair of jeans.
Yeah, like a plaid shirt that someone gave him for Christmas that they bought
at like Costco in like 2002. A Kirkland signature button-down shirt with tags
still on. Does have a nice liner though. It's pretty warm. It's got that nice
liner. It's pretty warm. Neil's never worn it, but he did touch it when he opened
the gift. He immediately placed it in his closet where it's been ever since. Do you
think if they were auctioning off like straight up like Jerry Garcia's
underwear? Like people would buy it. I mean somebody would. I mean I remember
there was another Grateful Dead auction maybe a year or two ago and I'm pretty
sure in that auction there was something almost as mundane as like Jerry's shorts.
Like a pair of black shorts. Well yeah I feel like yeah we talked about that on
the air. I think we did talk about it. Just a big black t-shirt. Oh right we were
talking about framing it. I'm sure it is framed somewhere now. I mean this auction,
this more recent Sotheby's auction had a little more like sense of like history.
Although one of the things that people talked about a lot was that a t-shirt
was sold which is now the most expensive t-shirt ever sold. Or at least the most
expensive rock t-shirt ever sold. And this t-shirt in this recent auction was
from 1967 and it sold for $17,640. The shirt was designed by graphic artist
and Hells Angel Alan Gutt Turk and sold for nearly twice as much as a 1979 Led
Zeppelin shirt which went for $10,000 during an eBay auction in 2011. And when
you look at this shirt it's like just like old yellow shirt. Pretty simple
Grateful Dead logo on it. It looks really like new. Like it's been sitting in a box
for like 54 years. It's in good shape. We know the guy who bought it. It was or
it's like it's public. His name's Bo Bushnell and he operates the Outlaw
Archive Instagram page which documents 1960s Motorcycle Club artifacts and
ephemera. Oh yeah I think I've I think I know somebody in common with this guy
actually. And he bought it to keep the memory of Gutt Turk alive and keep his
history under one roof. That's interesting. So this guy's not even
coming at it from the dead angle particularly. Right. More the motorcycle
history. It's almost like an institution bought it. Less of like a random
individual. The Museum of the Hells Angels. Kind of. Do you know it was it was
the dead that recommended to the stones that they use the Hells Angels for
security at Altamont. Really? Mm-hmm. I was just reading this book when I was in
Hawaii called Season of the Witch and it's like a history at San Francisco
from 67 to 82 which is a really fascinating window. Oh wow. And anyway in
the Altamont chapter the stones like couldn't find anyone to do security and
the dead were like use the Hells Angels they're cool. Wow I feel like the dead
kind of they made it out pretty unscathed from that situation. Yeah. I
never even knew that you don't see too much press saying that it was
specifically the dead who made the fatal decision to recommend the Hells Angels.
There was also a Grateful Dead shirt at auction that sold for $15,000 that was
specifically from the famous Cornell 77 show. To give you context around would
someone buy Jerry's underwear there's a shirt it's a it's not a dead shirt it's
a Fillmore West shirt that Pigpen wore on stage. That sold for $21,000.
Whoa wait but that's more than this dead shirt which set the auction. Well I don't
know if maybe that's considered something different because it's not this
was just a shirt worn by. It wasn't a dead shirt. No it's a Fillmore West shirt.
It's literally just a shirt he wore. From like the 60s. Yeah. Okay so that's a
slightly separate subcategory of ephemera. I wonder if like yeah I mean
obviously deadheads are a specific breed I don't know how well a Sotheby's auction
would do for like anybody else. Like we have this huge cache of early Green Day
memorabilia from 89 to 93 going up in Sotheby's. Am I I mean if someone had
like a like a Green Day shirt. Will that happen in our lifetime? Oh for sure but I'm just yeah imagine like the
first Green Day shirt from like 89 or whatever. I bet it's pretty tight. And
like someone had it in like their mom's attic in Berkeley for the last like 33
years and they're like it's in great shape throwing it up. Is that a five
figure shirt? I don't see that going for five figures. That sounds like something
you might come across on eBay that's like. I'm looking at eBay now. Early early
Green Day shirt. Gilman Street era. Yeah. I could see that going for like $850.
Look can I get a number crunch? Yeah I'm on eBay now. What's the most expensive Green Day shirt?
The most expensive is someone looking at a 94 Dukie shirt and they are asking
$1,100. Whoa how long has it been on the market? How long have you been selling it for?
Oh it's it's located in Japan. I mean that makes sense. Hmm I guess. Seinfeld can you use your. No it's sold.
Oh it's sold for $1,100? It's sold for yeah $1,162. Wow. Seinfeld see can you use
some of your contacts in Japan to find the the seller and see if we can get
them on the show and just say did they know they were gonna get that much money
for it? Where did they find the shirt? Maybe they can't tell us who bought it
but maybe they could give us a little bit of metadata about the buyer. Oh
totally. I'll tap my Tokyo Network and get the division on this. Okay great.
Let you know if they surface.
I'm seeing here that Nike and the Beatles collaborated on a shirt that sold for
$50,000. When did Nike and the Beatles collaborate on a shirt? So there was a
1987 ad campaign for Nike. They used the Beatles song Revolution. Apparently
Beatles did not want that song used but Michael Jackson owned the rights to it.
So they... Classic. And then they said Nike decided to pull the commercial as well
as I guess they had officially licensed merchandise at the same time which is a
little weird right because if the Beatles were like don't use our song wouldn't
they have had to approve the shirt that has the Beatles as actual Beatles
insect beetles and it says it's a revolution on it. It sounds like a great
shirt. Wait a second. So there was like a beetle with like a John Lennon head.
What do you mean? Yeah it's a beetle they're playing here I'll text it to you
guys but the Nike itself is very subtle it's just on Ringo's like kick drum.
Anyway I guess this is a this is a true grail here. And this went for $50,000.
50k yeah. This is from a list called the most expensive vintage t-shirts sold at
auction and it's the highest like band shirt on the list. Is there anything
higher period? Yeah there's a shirt by a company called Superlative Luxury that
apparently sold for $400,000. What? The shirt contains diamonds containing
roughly nine carats of black and white diamonds. This is often considered the
most expensive shirt in the world. The shirt is claimed to have been made from
pure green energy as the process of making it utilized solar energy and did
not emit any CO2. Yeah mining diamonds is really known as a really low key not
particularly resource intensive low carbon footprint. This sounds like some
kind of probably like tax evasion scam. Also that Beatles shirt is terrible.
It's very low-key. Guys I gotta say I think the t-shirt markets getting out of
control. Overheated t-shirt market. It's overheated. The Beatles t-shirts terrible
$400k for a diamond t-shirt. Also I feel like this probably happened in the 80s
already when people first started kind of like complaining about designer jeans
and t-shirts. It probably happened in the 70s because that used to be like a kind
of like line or a meme something that would come up where people just be like
you gotta be kidding me. I used to go down the store get a get a pair of Levi's
for $8. I get a pack of three white Hanes t-shirts for two bucks. You're telling
me people starting to spend $40 on a t-shirt. You gotta you must be out of
your mind like that's something that people used to say and I'm sure you still
get some people being like you're telling me there's people out here spending
$300 bucks on some kind of fancy t-shirt. Speaking of Hanes shirts. Yeah. On this
list there is a Run DMC Adidas Hanes shirt. Yeah. That is going for $13,000.
What is it from like 84 85 that era? Yeah. No, it's not a new shirt. But yeah,
it's a vintage shirt, but it's a Hanes shirt. It's printed just on a regular
white tee like it was homemade merch or no. No, I think that it's you know, I
think that that's just how Adidas at that. I don't need Adidas at this point
probably fabricating their own shirts, you know, but this is they just had a
Hanes shirt. So this is like kind of like a three-way collab actually for all the
Hanes heads. The Hanes dealers. Whoa, that Hanes straight up. There's a straight
up Hanes UNICEF shirt. It's from the 96 Olympics $42,000 40. What but this is
just a asking price or is that a is that auction result? It's the it's the
auction result. Someone paid that much 42,000 for a 90s. What I'm so confused
as we're talking. I'm scrolling through the Grateful Dead auction. It's like
all the gear is like super overpriced. Somebody paid $16,000 for Bob Dylan's
harmonica holder that he used on tour with the dead. Honestly, the best deal is
somebody bought this a Grateful Dead Madison Square Garden 1988 denim jacket
for 1260 bucks. 1260 that's an honest price Seinfeld. Are you fine? Can you
find a list of most expensive jean jackets ever sold at auction? Yeah, it's
got to be at auction. I guess with all this dead stuff. It's not hard to imagine.
There's a lot of wealthy deadheads. I wonder if Tucker Carlson, you know, got
anything. He must add his eye on this and Coulter and culture. She probably
grabbed a few things. Tucker and Ann Coulter texting. Are you looking at the
Sotheby's auction? Oh, yeah, I've come across an article. The title of this
article is would you pay us $4.59 million for this infinity denim jacket? But
with diamond buttons and golden platinum studs, the ultimate style collaboration
with between Carl Bathurst of Lord Swagger and Stuart Hughes has a price tag
to match. And this shirt, it's probably worth looking at this jacket is
probably worth looking at too, because it's it's highly studded. It's really
tricked out with lots of different gold sort of accents and things. I feel like
I could see Jake in this. This stuff just doesn't make sense to me. Look, of
course. Oh my God, you're gonna have your billionaires who are gonna buy a
five thousand dollar cardigan without thinking about it. There's probably even
like some billionaires that roll into like Brunello Cuccinelli, which is very
beautiful. Cashmere, Vicuna, things like that. A rich person, they might roll in
by a fifteen thousand dollar winter coat, not thinking about it. You know, they
start throwing in some sweaters, get their whole winter wardrobe. They're kind
of like Logan Roy, cashmere baseball hat. Next thing you know, you know, easily
they drop a hundred thousand dollars for that winter. Okay. However, when you
start talking about one denim jacket that costs four point six million dollars, I
can't visualize the person who's buying that because one thing about the hyper
rich, they don't like being taken advantage of. They like taking advantage
of people. They you know, they they want a deal because whoever's making that
jacket is being a little bit cheeky. Either it's kind of just like a way to
get attention. It's like a supreme brick. Just like does this even exist? Who
cares? Now people are talking about who's the designer. Oh man. The designer's
name is Carl Mathers. The brand is called Lord Swagger and then he's collaborated
with somebody else named Stuart Hughes. Lord Swagger. Is this the picture that
you sent? This is the jacket. Yeah, that's the jacket. Yeah, I could see they
might make this up and be like, you know, like time crisis. We could start a
store and say just like me and Jake, we started a new company called like Mr.
Swagger. We're very proud to announce that we are selling the most expensive
jean jacket in the world. It's a little bit nicer than the Lord Swagger jean
jacket. Ours actually costs twenty million dollars. It's just completely
studded in diamonds. But then we just put up a mocked up picture and we say,
you know, if anybody actually buys it, if we ever get the email one day, like
holy sh*t, we just got twenty million dollars in our bank account. They bought
it. All right, me and Jake can go diamond shopping. We're going to stitch this
thing together. But in the meantime, it's just a way to get attention. And now
we're talking about Lord Swagger because they got our attention. I'm sure a lot
of TC heads probably checking out their website. They're probably going to do a
little bit of business today, you know, at a lower scale. So anyway, I just don't
believe this is real. I guess like most things it's real, but it's not it's not
really real. It does remind me like when Victoria's Secret was a thing. Every
year there would be a news article about like the most expensive diamond bra ever
ever made. And that would be. Oh yeah. And you couldn't buy it, obviously, but it
would be like the thing that people would talk about. This is what this feels
like to me. Yeah. What did they do? They put a diamond bra together for like one
show and they took a picture. Yeah, it's always I think it was always in the show
or something like that. And it would be like this big news like it was the same
news every single year. It would be like they did it again. This is what that
feels like. Time Crisis announces plans for the most expensive guitar ever made.
The guitar is made out of pure gold studded with 20 million dollars worth of
diamonds signed by every living member of the Grateful Dead and Led Zeppelin.
And we're ready to sell it.
When I was just a little young boy
Papa said, "Son, you'll never get far
I'll tell you the reason if you wanna know
'Cause, child of mine, there isn't really very far to go
Well, baby, baby, what's a gold diamond ring?
What's it more than most any old thing?
Well, when I get those jelly roll blues
Why, I'd go and get anything in this world for you
And down to the jewelry store
Packing a gun says, "Wrap it up
I think I'll take this one
A thousand dollars, please, this jewelry man said
To pre-send, I'll pay this one off to you in Lent"
Some of the results are out of control. Like, somebody paid 52 thousand dollars,
almost 53 thousand dollars for a speaker cabinet that Jerry owned that was used
with the dead circa 1985. I mean, 53 thousand dollars just for a speaker cabinet.
I mean, like, so here's one. Jerry had a Mutron phase pedal
and it's like a pretty classic pedal that Jerry would have used. I'm sure he had many.
And this one went for 16 thousand dollars.
See, that seems low to me. I would much rather have the pedal than the cabinet.
Yeah.
I just can't imagine a musician actually buying this stuff.
And so I think that if you're, like, just buying it and showing it off, a cabinet,
like, just probably fits better in your house than showing off a pedal.
It's more like sculptural. A big speaker.
It's an art object at that point.
It is interesting to think, like, will there ever be an artist where people care this much
this long after their heyday?
Well, I mean, I've imagined there's been big, like, Stones or Beatles auctions.
I don't know. We don't have to maybe open that can of worms, but,
because we've been on this for a while.
I'm sure for, like, also their 60s contemporaries.
Yeah.
I'm just thinking, like, you threw out the Green Day concept.
I mean, I could see, like, any number of artists that people are obsessed with
that have huge follow-ups. You know, yeah, like a Beyoncé auction in, like, another 15, 20 years.
I think Wu-Tang.
Oh, sure. Yeah.
No, no. I'm sure all these artists have stuff that would get people pretty excited.
I guess the Grateful Dead, there's something about the cult around the live show
that makes any gear that was on stage kind of exciting.
It gets pretty funny when you talk about, like, yeah, imagine you could buy, like,
part of, like, the speaker from a Beyoncé stadium tour.
Like, who gives a s***?
I mean, I'm sure there's so many, like, if it was something from a video or something,
I'm sure there's a lot of really exciting things about that Beyoncé could put up for auction.
But just, like, the Grateful Dead, there's this, like, funny thing where
some pretty mundane items are going for a lot of money.
Yeah, it's wild.
Well, congratulations to everybody who won big at the Grateful Dead auction.
[laughter]
And I guess truly the real congratulations are in order for,
I believe it was, like, Steve Parish and maybe some other people
who are kind of, like, associated with the organization
who put some of the stuff up from their personal collection.
And I get that. You're, like, kind of a longtime crew member for the Dead.
You have a bunch of stuff. You're in your 70s.
Like, yeah, cash in a little bit.
Give it to somebody who's going to be super psyched.
Overpay for it.
Could you imagine writing the group thread saying,
"Guys, I did it. I won the auction. I got Pigpen's shirt.
I spent $23,000 on it."
I don't think you can even share that information with anybody.
No, it's embarrassing. It's not a flex.
You have to be in a peer group that would see that as cool.
Right, which is not necessarily...
[laughter]
the average Grateful Dead fan.
Jake, what if you went to Ezra's place, and you walked in,
and you saw that t-shirt framed on the wall,
and you're like, "Oh, that's cool."
Where'd that come from?
I'd be like, "Oh, damn. It was you."
[laughter]
It looked like Stan. Is that a Stan reference?
Yes, Ezra is a Stan.
I heard about a dude who won big at the Grateful Dead auction.
His name was Ezra, too.
Oh, sh*t. It was you.
Pseudonym, dude.
Yeah.
[laughter]
I'd be like, "Word. Okay, cool."
The last thing I'll say about this, and with all these auctions in general,
is I'm just so curious about whether these things will maintain their value.
Hmm.
Because obviously when you talk about the art world,
and people go so nuts about auctions,
and you're always reading in the press, like,
"New record-breaking sale for Basquiat or Picasso," or the classics,
and you know the people who buy art are not doing it for the love of the game.
They might say they are, but the art world is so associated with wealth management
at this point that when you hear about somebody buying some famous Van Gogh,
and it's like, "It's record-breaking,"
whoever it is, it's safe to say they're an incredibly rich person
who in the back of their mind is thinking,
"I will sell this one day, and I will make my money back, and then some."
Generally.
But anyway, this is just a totally different universe than the art world,
and I'm just very curious about,
are there things like this that have been incredibly hot for a moment,
which eventually cooled off so considerably that the next time
this thing was at auction,
it couldn't even get half what it went for 10 years prior?
There must be examples.
Well, I was going to say, most art is that way.
I mean, you named Basquiat and Picasso,
who are some of the most famous artists from the 20th century,
but you go to Sotheby's, and they're auctioning off thousands of pieces of art
from people you may not have heard of, or people that have much smaller careers,
and maybe that stuff sold at auction for a lot of money 20 years ago.
Imagine being the child of who bought this pig pen shirt,
and you're with the lawyer, you're going over the inheritance.
Oh my.
And they tell you that you are getting this pig pen shirt,
that your father, uncle, whatever, spent $23,000 on it,
and you're like, "Wow, I'm going to go sell--
you know, 20 years ago, I'm going to sell this."
And you bring it to market, and they're like, "$400?"
Yeah.
I have a feeling that the Grateful Dead ephemera will not retain its value.
But I also have a feeling--
Probably the vast majority of it.
I have a feeling that the Grateful Dead stuff is being bought
for true love of the game and passion, though,
and not for parking your money in a Picasso.
I totally believe that, but as Nick pointed out,
that might be cold comfort to some of the children of these collectors.
Because just imagine, let's say your dad's not a millionaire,
he's not a billionaire, he's just a hard-working man
who, over the course of his whole life,
socked away about $80,000 in his bank account.
Nothing crazy.
But then he says, "You know what?
I want a piece of this, and I'm going to buy a pig pen T-shirt."
I've worked hard my whole life.
"I'm buying this for love of the game, but of course, one day,
this will pass on to you, dear boy.
And of course, you'll be able to sell it."
And you're just like, "Dad, please buy some Taco Bell NFTs.
This is not a good idea."
And he's like, "Well, I'm not particularly passionate about Taco Bell or NFTs.
I'm a deadhead, and this is a win-win."
It's like, "No, this is not a win-win."
I'm also just like--
Now I'm just looking at the Sotheby's website,
just checking out random auctions they have.
A Dutch Baroque brass two-tier 16-light chandelier,
late 17th, early 18th century.
What's the estimate on that?
The estimate's $5,000 to $8,000, although judging by the Grateful Dead auction,
the estimates mean nothing.
A lot of them were just shattered.
Here's another one, like a Spanish colonial silver two-handled bowl,
late 18th century.
So this is just a silver bowl.
You know, if you look at it with just kind of amateur eyes,
you're not a pro, you'd say like,
"All right, it's kind of a fuddy-duddy old silver bowl.
I guess you could put some fruit in it.
Maybe if you're having a real fancy dinner, you could bust it out.
There's some nice engravings, but, you know, it looks like something
you might see at grandma's house."
Anyway, the current bid for this is $4,000.
I'm just curious, will there ever come a moment
when the fabric of society has changed so much
or the people with money have changed so much
that truly nobody's going to give a s--t about an 18th century Spanish silver bowl?
And whoever spent $10,000 on it in 2021, people will be like,
"You could buy that for like $2,500 now."
You know, like physical things, old European chairs and tables,
and I know there's a market for it now,
but do you think that that'll ever just like, the bottom will drop out?
Just like when Elon Musk's son is like 50, he's just going to be like,
"When those people are ruling the world, will they give a s--t?"
Yeah, it's like when you're young, you can't picture being interested in that stuff.
And the question is, as you age, does that start to appeal?
My parents have a lot of old furniture that they got from their parents, you know?
Or maybe some stuff they bought in New England,
they have some old ass, 200-year-old tables, you know?
And yeah, it is kind of like, is that something that appeals to me?
Not really. I see what you're saying.
Maybe there's always going to be a contingent of the population that sort of like,
thinks that fancy old stuff connotes some sort of sophistication.
And as they age, it's like, "Yeah, I need to get a nice rug and a weird candlestick holder."
A candlestick holder.
And maybe just like these trends come and go,
like right now, 18th century European furniture seems pretty irrelevant, but who knows?
Maybe there'll be a weird trend in 30, 40 years and people will be like,
"It'll mean something different."
Alright, we've got a nice email. Somebody's looking for a wedding song.
"Hi Ezra and Jake, my name is Natalie. Nice to meet you via email.
My fiancé and I recently got engaged this summer and we're getting married next summer.
My fiancé is a huge, huge TC head. I enjoy it too, don't get me wrong,
but he's the type to listen to a new episode as soon as it drops.
We're also both huge VW fans.
I'm writing you guys today because Brett and I are actively working to pick a song
for the big first dance at our wedding, and it is hard to find a song that would be the right fit.
I was wondering if you all have any ideas or recommendations since we both love VW,
been to multiple VW concerts together.
I was thinking a VW song would be great special, but I'm trying to think of which one would work
and not be too sad or weird.
If you guys want to write a song for it, also inclined to see how that would turn out, lol."
That's sweet. Probably don't have time for that. It's a slow process.
"Would love to have your advice."
Alright, well first of all, shout out to Natalie and her fiancé Brett. Congratulations.
Well, I mean, a first dance is supposed to be kind of like touching, right?
Yeah.
Leather and Lace was my wedding dance.
Leather and Lace, Stevie Nicks featuring Don Henley?
Yep.
I love that Don was prominently featured in your first dance.
Well, that's a great song.
Jake, what was yours?
The Wonder of You by Elvis Presley.
Oh yeah.
Fun, short, festive, very late. It's like maybe the year before he died.
Very fun song. Got a great James Burton guitar solo.
Pick that day off.
I kind of remember that story that you didn't put a ton of thought into it, but you've always liked it.
Hannah had never heard it.
So she heard it for the first time during your first dance?
Yep.
You didn't clear it with her before?
I was like, "I have an idea for the first dance song, Wonder of You."
She's like, "Okay." We were running around trying to get stuff together.
It was the least of your concerns.
I'm trying to think of a good VW song.
It's got to be romantic.
It's like the couple's slow dancing or medium tempo dancing, just the two of them.
So it's not like you're not going to do like A-Punk or something.
That's what you would use to get the crowd going.
That's like the second song.
I'm sorry to Natalie and Brett because I don't think we have one that's quite right.
I could look at it from a few different angles.
I would suggest A-Punk because that is our most popular song, just purely in terms of the metrics.
I've got my own personal favorites, but I would say just if there's any song that other people might know.
What about the one that's like kind of towards the end of Father of the Bride?
They're like, "We go together like da-na-na."
Yeah, "We belong together."
I think that would be good.
It has the right message, I think.
Is it too fast, do you think?
It's a little pumped up.
Is Married in a Gold Rush too off?
No, that's sad. That's a sad song.
It's too sad, yeah.
I think that's too sad.
Step is kind of sad.
Yeah, I don't know.
But it kind of maybe has the right energy.
I think "We belong together."
The Vampire Weekend version, not the Mariah Carey version.
Okay, right.
Our version.
I mean, I'm going to say A-Punk.
Again, I have the metrics.
I can look through and I can tell you unequivocally, it's our most popular song.
It's been used the most in films, programs, commercials.
On all the streaming services, it's our most streamed song.
It can get people moving.
In concert, people get really hyped up to it.
I'd say play that two or three times and you got yourself a wedding.
Ezra, it strikes me that there's an opportunity here for Vampire Weekend
to write an extremely hyper-targeted, on-the-nose, wedding first dance song.
That's a great call.
Right?
Call it "Wedding First Dance."
First dance.
First dance, there you go.
This is like some Ed Sheeran s***.
I feel like he would do that.
But anyway, hyper-focused first dance song.
I'm sorry I don't have a good answer for you, Natalie.
You should probably do, I don't know, "Naive Melody" by the Talking Heads
or something like that.
But what you're really showing me with your email is you came to TC asking for help,
but what actually you did is help me.
You made me understand there's a gaping hole in our catalog.
I'm sorry, but when you talk about top-tier artists,
you talk about The Beatles, Elvis, Justin Bieber, Dua Lipa, Ed Sheeran,
if you asked any of them what song should I dance to at my wedding,
they're going to have two or three perfect songs.
You know?
They're going to have a song that's clearly about love,
it's got the right energy, and honestly, it's embarrassing
that we don't have anything that quite fits that bill.
So yeah, LP5, let's say third single, first dance.
Just a deep ballad.
It'll basically just be a rewrite of that Ed Sheeran song,
the "Barefoot in the Grass" song.
[sings]
Yeah, with a slight throwback kind of vibe.
Just like, [sings]
"It's our first dance. It's our first dance."
Just very straightforward.
I'm excited about this.
All right. Got something to focus on now.
[sings]
We go together, like left and right Oh, we go together
We go together like give and take Pains and aches, real and fake
We go together, don't be opaque It's clear, we go together
We belong together We belong together
Baby, there's no use in being clever Baby, it don't mean we stay together
Okay, now we're gonna get on the phone with our guest, Kelefa Sané,
is a legendary music journalist, born in 1976 in Birmingham, England,
although I believe he primarily grew up in America, including Connecticut,
so we're gonna have something very interesting to talk about.
He was a music writer for the New York Times, and since 2008,
he's been a staff writer for the New Yorker.
He wrote a very important essay in 2004 about music fandom
that was called "The Rap Against Rockism" and introduced the wider public
to a debate within music criticism that quickly became framed as "rockism"
versus "poptimism." I still hear people use these terms.
Sure. He coined those terms?
In my notes, it doesn't say that he coined them, but he brought it to,
it says he helped publicize, he brought it to a wider audience via the New York Times.
He was the deputy editor of Transition, a journal of race and culture,
based at the W.E.B. Du Bois Research Institute at Harvard University,
and he also played bass in the Harvard bands Hypertrophy, Sh*tstraw, Mopar,
Fear of Reprisal, and Tactic, as well as a Devo cover band.
Wait, those were all bands at Harvard?
Yeah, we're gonna have to get into this with him.
Harvard hardcore.
And the new book is called Major Labels.
Now, let's go to the Time Crisis Hotline.
Kelifa, also known as K, welcome to Time Crisis.
Thank you. Happy to be here.
We got a lot of questions for you.
Likewise.
We were just kind of reading through your bio.
It ended with a line about the various bands you played bass in at Harvard.
For the record, I would never list my bands I played in in my own bio because, like,
no one ever cared about them.
But you were-
It feels like humblebraggy, like, oh, I was in some bands,
like, no, they did not rise to the level of a band you could humblebrag about.
But is it actually true that you were in, like,
seven different bands at Harvard and you played bass in all of them?
Uh, I generally, yeah, I think I probably played some guitar too.
But, you know, bands, it was like, you know, you and your friends, like, did something.
But I don't think I've ever been in a band
where someone came to one of our shows to see us who didn't know us.
So, like, I feel like that's a minimum level that you have to achieve to be, like, an actual band.
Like, there has to be one person that wants to hear your music.
Right, at least one person.
Yeah, because even if it's a full house, if you invited all of them-
Right, it was never a full house.
That's more like throwing a party.
The only band I was in that I would say that anyone ever even enjoyed at all,
I was in a Devo cover band.
But yes, I never achieved actual bandom with any of my bands.
What did Fear of Reprisal sound like? Is that a hardcore band?
Yeah, it was a brutal hardcore band. Quite unpleasant.
And were these all hardcore bands?
No, I was kind of like, I feel like Mopar had a guy who had played in Antisene at one point in it.
You know, Antisene, they were like a southern rock punk band, kind of.
So maybe they were a little more of like a punk rock band.
And then some of the other ones were just kind of, you know, silly.
I was much better at listening to music than making music.
That was always true.
Right.
It remains true.
Now we're getting more context.
And given that your new book is about genre, it seems like as a bassist and guitarist
in your college years, you lean towards the punk hardcore spectrum.
Oh, dude, that was my whole life.
So like, literally, my friend gave me a mixtape when I was 14, like a punk rock mixtape.
And I was like, that's it.
I'm going in.
And like, put everything else aside and was strictly punk for years.
Like in high school, I was like, I want to hear the weirdest music I can in the world.
And I discovered Japanese noise music.
And I just wanted to hear the craziest stuff ever in college because I went to Harvard,
which had WHRB, which had this incredibly uptight radio station.
They had a punk rock department where you had to take an exam to be allowed like through the door.
And then once you got through the door, you took a year, you took a semester long
unofficial class on punk.
And then at the end of that, you could be a radio DJ.
Whoa.
The idea that like, you would be taught the punk orthodoxy, like there's a lecture every
week with a listening assignment.
And then you'd go listen to these records and say what you thought about them.
Like it was so perverse that it totally blew my mind.
And I was like, wait, there's a punk orthodoxy?
I thought punk was supposed to be about breaking the rules, man.
And, you know, of course, what I realized was that especially the genres that are the
most about breaking the rules or the most about defying whatever, tend to be the ones that have
the like strictest rules and the strictest sense of themselves as a community and who's
allowed in and who's kept outside.
So that really changed the way I thought about music.
That I thought I was breaking all the rules because I was listening to all this quote
unquote crazy punk rock.
But then it was like, no, that hardcore band sounds like the Dead Kennedys and the Dead
Kennedys kind of sound like the Ramones and the Ramones kind of sounded like the Stooges
and the Stooges had been inspired by like the Seeds and the Sonics and all this other
stuff like, oh, there's a lineage like you're not out there like breaking all the rules.
You're like exploring this one particular thing.
And like there's some other stuff you could explore too.
- Was there a year that they said that punk rock ended?
- No, cause it was still like, so this was like early nineties and early to mid nineties.
I graduated 98, but by that time I wasn't doing so much radio stuff, but it was part
of the fun was that it was super plugged into what was going on.
So at the same time, like we were doing shows in Boston, like the Boston hardcore scene
as you guys might know, was so like affiliated with like, kind of like a tough guy jock mentality,
that it actually split.
And there was like a second hardcore scene that was the, you know, the sensitive straight
edge vegan kids in cardigans doing like Food Not Bombs benefits.
Right.
And so like, it was totally plugged into that and we were organizing shows.
We were super into new music too.
- I wonder if like, it's funny because I'm having some memories of when I was in college,
which was in the early two thousands at Columbia, New York.
And there was also this kind of like crew of people around the radio station, WBAR,
which is the Barnard radio station who are like these very smart, but like in super like
hardcore, like punk rock Ivy League dudes.
And somehow it's like, it kind of went together in a way.
I mean, that Columbia and I'm sure also at Harvard, it's like, it's very easy to avoid
like the real like fuddy duddy old school Ivy League stuff, you know, if you want to.
But that character made a big impression on me, just like the kind of person who would
go on to get a PhD in philosophy, you know, like they would probably, they know all about
like Heidegger, they know like German philosophy inside and out.
And then they also collect like punk seven inches of stuff you never heard of.
- There's a nerdiness to it, right?
- But then they would dress in like that borderline crust punk fashion.
- Oh really?
- But then also be like very...
- The little loincloths?
- No, no, no, not that crazy.
I'm just, no, maybe crust punk isn't right.
But you know, just like kind of like black jeans, jacket with the patches, kind of look.
And then, you know, but also be like very diligent students.
I wonder if this character still exists.
Have they been driven off the earth?
When your research on punk, like what happened?
- Well, like it sounds so old fashioned now, but what I realized looking back on it was like,
it was really old fashioned when I got into it in 1990, which was a long time ago, right?
Like that's the weird thing is I'm listening to the Sex Pistols in my bedroom in Connecticut.
And like, it's an old English band from like more than a decade ago.
And it didn't strike me as strange that I was listening to this old music and found it exciting
as a kid.
And so, you know, one of the weird things about punk is that it seems so obviously like a fad
when it happens in the 70s.
You know, there's this cool stuff happening in New York.
You have Malcolm McLaren in the UK basically creating, you know, it's kind of a media stunt,
right?
He's got this shop Sex and then he like puts this band together and they're going to be the
Sex Pistols, like named after the shop, the way teams are named after their hometowns.
- Right.
- It kind of blows up and there are news reports, I think as early as 78 being like,
well, the punk fad, you know, it came and went and the next thing is happening.
And one of the strange things about punk is that it gets reborn like every few years
in totally different ways.
And this thing that you'd think would just sort of go away keeps coming back.
You see that this year, right?
With MGK and Olivia Rodrigo and like some of the biggest pop acts of 2021 are in some sense,
depending on how we define it, like kind of punk.
And it, you know, it keeps happening in the underground too.
I think there's a, that's the musical story of punk.
There's a non-musical story, which is punk as a relative term.
In other words, a song is punk compared to something else because it's crazier or it's
louder or it's faster or it's meaner, right?
Like it's not the mainstream, it's something else.
So there's another definition of punk, which is like, it's a rejection of some version
of the mainstream in favor of some version of the underground.
And that was super inspiring to me as a kid because it was like critical thinking.
It was like, oh, you can reject music.
Like you can hate music.
Like you don't have to just like listen to whatever else is listening to.
You can have your own ideas.
And that is a thing.
I think that's been really inspiring to people over the decades and inspiring to people who
don't know or even care about punk, right?
This idea of punk, this idea of hardcore, right?
And core becomes this suffix that gets like, you know, it's like mumblecore, normcore.
Like it's this thing that has this meaning that people relate to, even if they don't
care about actual hardcore punk music.
So there is this, this ideal of punkness that I think people imbibe, like you see it in
all the alts, right?
Alt hip hop, alt country is like, oh, we'll do a sort of like punk-ish version of this
thing where it's going to be more, it's going to have more integrity.
It's going to be more underground.
And you're kind of angry and sticking it to the mainstream version.
Yes.
Yeah.
That's very interesting to think of because that's the way that regardless of punk, like
you said, the music perhaps only being used as like a brush stroke on a pop star's painting
today in some ways, but the idea of it being a relative term, because that makes it eternal.
Right.
It's like up or down, you know, then it becomes part of like the harmony of nature.
Right.
Or maybe it's a process even, right?
Like you can take country and you can like, kind of like punkify it, like punk as a verb
in the Ashton Kutcher sense of like, you can punk things.
Right.
I've noticed that, I don't know how widespread it is, but there's like some people I used
to work with, they were like a little bit older than me working in the music industry
and they would occasionally, because maybe they actually did have some roots in punk,
but they would often use punk rock as a verb, usually meaning to just avoid going through
all like the official hassle of doing it.
And like for doing a show, for instance, if somebody could say like, okay, what now people
like to do stuff where you pop up somewhere unexpected and you could say, all right, well,
if you want, let's say you want to do a show.
I mean, we did this once in Washington Square Park a couple of years ago where, you know,
if you want to do like an official show in Washington Square Park and you want to get
a stage, you'd probably have to like hire cops and like talk to the city, whatever.
And next thing you know, it would probably legitimately cost $80,000 to do some kind
of like fun free thing.
Whereas, you know, it's a public space.
If you just want to show up with an acoustic guitar, you're allowed to do that.
But anyway, that's like, well, let's just punk rock it.
Let's just roll up, not ask anybody.
And weirdly that phrase has always stuck with me.
It's like, yeah, let's just punk rock it.
I mean, if you really land, but even like, you know, don't make a reservation at a restaurant.
Just punk rock it.
The funny thing is in an earlier generation, you might've used rock and roll that way,
right?
Like rock and roll might be the thing that stands in for like, let's just get the kids
together and let's just do it.
Let's not go through the official channels.
And so part of the thing about punk rock is that it has this like reformational urge.
Like something's gone wrong with rock and roll.
This is one version of punk rock and we're going to like put it back on the right course.
You know, one of the first major albums to use the word punk is the Nuggets compilation
that Lenny K put out in the early seventies.
And this is like a compilation of like late sixties rock and roll bands.
And the idea is like, well, rock and roll have this spirit for a moment and it's, and
these bands were punk and that spirit is gone and we're going to find that again.
So yes, part of the irony of that is the thing that you described isn't just limited to
punk.
That used to be, and sometimes still is the way rock and roll thinks of itself.
And one way to be punk is to be more rock and roll than rock and roll.
You're not punk and I'm telling everyone
Second brand but never was one
You don't know what I'm all about
Like helicopter, bread and butter
My enemies are all too familiar
Down with once, don't start on them
What?
Call a red now, start a gun now
I'm a person now, but you're a person now
What's the score?
So I see you were born in 1976 and you grew up in Connecticut.
Yeah.
Jake was born in 1977.
He grew up in Connecticut and we often talk on this show about Connecticut in particular.
Jake kind of rags on it.
He doesn't exactly have a lot of home state pride, partially because in Jake's words,
as far as the tri-state area goes, Connecticut is not pulling its weight.
I mean, part of the problem with Connecticut for music or one of the things that's tricky
is it doesn't really have any cities.
That's kind of an issue.
Although like Long Island doesn't either.
And it's smaller than Connecticut with a smaller black population and, you know,
has given us a lot of great music of a lot of genres.
Yeah, Connecticut.
Quite a bit.
But there is something apparently very important called Connecticut hardcore.
Connecticut hardcore.
In fact, you could say that New York hardcore is in a sense Connecticut hardcore because
the New York hardcore scene was a little bit more of one by the late 80s.
And this band from Connecticut called Youth of Today comes down and like kind of revivifies
the New York hardcore scene and like has this label Revelation Records, which is super important.
And the funniest part of that is that it kind of like suburbanizes the New York hardcore
scene because you have this new crew, you know, sometimes they call the youth crew and
they're wearing like varsity jackets and sneakers like that's going to be the new
uniform of New York hardcore.
Thanks to these Connecticut kids and like for some of the New York people, it was kind
of exotic, right?
And intimidating, right?
Because they're used to boots and jeans and T-shirts and like this crew of like sort of
suburban jock looking guys, you know, kind of muscular, short hair.
Like that's the new exotic thing in New York is this Connecticut wave.
What year was that about?
It's like the late 80s.
Interesting.
I don't know that history.
And did those kids move to New York City or did they stay in Connecticut?
Yeah.
I think Ray Capo and the other like Youth of Today people, you know, they were in at various
points, I think Revelation in the early years was in New Haven, it was in Danbury.
And then at some point, yes, they go down to New York and become, you know, help build
this like New York straight edge hardcore scene.
And then of course, Ray converts or gets increasingly interested in Hare Krishna.
And like, that's the birth of Krishna core.
Okay, so Youth of Today is, they were kind of like the ultimate Connecticut hardcore
brand.
They ushered this in.
And they were vegetarian and straight edge.
And I guess Moby was actually Connecticut hardcore too?
Yeah, Moby was Vatican Commandos.
They weren't popular at the time, but obviously he becomes like an important figure.
If we're talking Connecticut, I would claim Richard Carpenter, although he's not hardcore
the Carpenters lived in New Haven in the early part of their life.
I would claim Michael Bolton.
Michael Bolton, absolutely.
I would claim John Mayer.
Dave Longstreth.
Dirty Projectors, my brother.
Dirty Projectors.
There you go.
But all of these are these kind of individuals who did lay their head at some point in the
great state of Connecticut.
What's interesting about Connecticut hardcore is that it actually is like a genre that kind
of like means something that comes from Connecticut.
Yeah, you have this band Jasta 14, right?
And the lead singer is Jamie Jasta, who goes on to be the lead singer of Hatebreed, this
metalcore band.
Mm-hmm, major band.
I think he was actually the host of Headbangers Ball for a minute.
He's kind of like a personality in that world.
So yeah, and when I was going to shows, I was like on the punk side of the punk hardcore
divide.
So I was a little bit that more kind of like tough guy, jockish stuff.
Took me a few more years to kind of go back and appreciate that.
So is it fair to say that punk and hardcore was like the first genre that like deeply
meant something to you as a young adult?
Yeah, it was the first time I was obsessed with music was punk and hardcore.
Did you have like a formative experience with punk?
Yeah, I also, I'd never been quite so interested in the history of a genre before.
You know, like, of course, I listened to different types of music.
Like I'm sure all of us, I was like just into music.
I was always kind of interested in all types of music, but there was something about being
like 13 or 14, kind of getting into punk, being like, oh, there's a band from New Jersey
called the Bouncing Souls.
I really like them.
And they're, oh, they're from New Jersey.
That's interesting.
And then kind of look, you know, my dad was into like early punk.
So, you know, I look at his old records and be like, oh, the Ramones.
And this was a cool band.
Like when my dad was like not a dad yet, and he was listening to the Ramones and the
Clash and I, and there's something about that, that I kind of put it together in a way that
I didn't do with anything else.
And then my friend had this book called Punk Diary that goes kind of like day by day through
like, it's English focused, but it goes like day by day through like 1975 through 1978.
It's like what single came out that day?
You know, what band formed, what show happened?
And there's something about that, that I found so fascinating that, yeah, I don't know why,
maybe because punk is like small.
You can really wrap your head around it and you can really see that lineage.
So yeah, there's, I guess it's a way of seeing or something when you get into punk.
It's like nicely tribal too.
You can feel like you're part of something.
Even if you're not like exactly living that lifestyle, you can feel like there's like
a like-minded thing happening.
There's like a community.
Right.
Yeah.
Even if you just throw on the record and you hear them talking about, you hear like the
band talking about what they believe in and what they think and whatever, and you look
at the pictures.
Yeah, you kind of feel immersed in it.
But your book is not only about punk.
No, it's about seven different genres.
It's seven different genres of punk, starting with Connecticut hardcore.
That's right.
That's right.
It goes all the different flavors.
Moving into Long Island pop punk.
Moving into the 2010s Willimantic scene, which is one of Connecticut's greatest contributions
to the punk legacy.
The world is a beautiful place and I'm no longer afraid to die, is a Connecticut punk
band that was important in the emo revival.
Yeah.
Oh, I know.
Jake, do you know this band?
No, I'm way out of the loop on the CTHC scene.
You said that was 2010s?
Yeah, 2010s.
They're more on the emo punk indie side.
What city is in Connecticut where these bands based out of?
I think World is a Beautiful Place are from Willimantic.
Is that Eastern CT?
It's like, I think it's outside.
Yeah, and I think it's kind of outside of Hartford.
Interesting.
Cool.
I don't want to get fact checked here, but.
Yeah, no, wow.
So the book is actually about seven different genres of music, punk merely being one.
Well, it's got.
That's right.
Rock, R&B, country.
So now in your own words, what made you want to write a book about genre?
It was kind of two reasons.
One was that I wanted to tell the story of what I felt like had happened to music
since basically since the Beatles broke up, like how everything got so fragmented and weird
and obscure and no one's ever heard of anything.
And like your average person is like, I know there's house and there's techno,
like not really sure the difference between them.
And like, why do these things even exist?
And so I felt like the story of what happened to music, you know, in the last 50 years from
the 70s onward was partly the story of these genres developing and having arguments within
themselves and fragmenting and going to strange places.
And that if you want to understand why music is the way it is, like learning about genres
is kind of a good way to do it.
Learning about why country music went this way and R&B went this way.
The other reason I wanted to write about genres is because I feel like there may be underrated.
Maybe there's a tendency to think of genres as like, oh, it's kind of closed minded.
And these people, they have these gatekeepers and they're telling musicians what to do.
And there's these closed minded, narrow minded listeners that only listen to this.
And that if we're enlightened listeners, we should listen to everything.
And if you're like an imaginative musician, you should transcend genre, right?
Like critics like me are always praising musicians for like, oh, they combine genre.
They transcend genre.
They're not limited by genre.
And so I kind of wanted to stick up for the idea of a genre because the genre is kind
of a musical community, right?
It's a community of listeners and musicians, often an imaginary community.
And like, yeah, communities can be closed minded and, you know, they can be elitist
and all these other things that make us kind of itchy.
But that said, like as humans, we like communities.
We like being part of communities and that's why we keep building them.
And that's why usually when we're knocking down the barriers to genre and like expanding
our community over here, usually we're building new barriers over there to keep people out
in a different way.
Because every community, every genre has that dynamic of inclusion and exclusion, right?
So you can have like the punk rock scene or the hardcore scene I was part of where it's
like where there are strong rules about like everyone's straight edge, people have similar
political views, you're not allowed to mess with major labels.
Or you can have something like R&B, which is like, it's, you know, it's this tradition
of great black music and black singers performing for, you know, largely black audiences.
And in one way, like R&B is really welcoming, right?
There aren't really gatekeepers, especially within the black community of musicians.
There aren't really gatekeepers saying like, you're not an R&B singer.
You are an R&B singer.
But what they have instead are charts.
And R&B singers tend to be obsessed with charts.
Aretha Franklin was obsessed with the charts throughout her life.
Like she was always wondering like, who's number one on the R&B charts?
Why isn't it me?
Right?
Because if you don't have a firm boundary around your genre, if you can't just say like,
oh, we're a community defined this way, you have to find a different way to figure out
like what your community is.
And so often pop charts are one way that communities can kind of define themselves.
But there's always some way that any musical community has of figuring out like, well,
who are we and who's in and who's out?
And like, what does this mean?
Yeah, it is funny to think about like the pop community, because historically, to be
a pop artist would mean to be on the pop charts.
And to be homeless, right?
Historically, certainly in the 70s, to be a pop artist meant that like no genre would
claim you, right?
Like you used to be, you know, you used to be a rock and roll band.
Homeless in the sense of not belonging to a genre.
Right.
But probably very wealthy.
Yeah, you're the Bee Gees or something, right?
You used to be like a kind of a slightly psychedelic rock band.
And now you're making disco records and you're a pop act, right?
And so it was kind of a pejorative often.
And a thing that happens in the 80s in the UK is like a bunch of musicians start embracing
pop as an identity and like waving the flag for pop, you know, all the, what we would
call new wave or new romantic or new pop groups, right?
Which kind of emerges out of punk.
And their idea is that like, oh, this is actually going to be, this is going to replace punk
is going to be this new ethos.
And it's Boy George or ABC or Human League or all these Duran Duran, right?
All these groups like we're going to, instead of being, you know, dressed in black and it's
like loud guitars, this is going to be like synthesizers and it's going to be colorful
and it's going to be fun.
And we're going to put forward this idea that like actually pop is cooler than rock and
actually pop has an identity.
So in the 80s, you get the birth of a kind of self-conscious pop.
And the funny thing is, even now, when you listen to like so-called hyper pop acts, if
you listen to like Kim Petras or someone that's making music that might be considered hyper
pop, a lot of what they're drawn from is that 80s sound.
So the 80s is where pop becomes, goes from being just a catch-all category to like a
specific sound as well.
And that you kind of feel like that's still the era that we're in today.
Yeah, it's one thing that people mean when they say that like Katy Perry is like a real
pop artist.
They mean like she sort of draws from Madonna, right?
Or like Lady Gaga is drawn from like a lot of 80s stuff.
And so that's one way to be pop is to be part of that particular tradition.
Another way to be pop is just to like have your records sell like crazy.
And, you know, defined broadly, pop includes everything in the book.
But, you know, there is a sense when like Dr. Dre puts out The Chronic, it's like the
album is like a huge blockbuster, but like it's not exactly pop in its sensibility, right?
It still feels a little bit subcultural, even though it's more popular than everything else.
One, two, three, and to the four Snoop Doggy Dogg and Dr. Dre is at the door
Ready to make an entrance, so back on up 'Cause you knew about the rippa of this
Give me the microphone first so I can bust like a bubble
Compton and Long Beach together, now you know you in trouble
Ain't nothing but a G-Thing, baby Too low-depth, so get going crazy
Death Row is the label that pays me Unfadeable, so please don't try to fake this
But I'm back to the nature at hand Perfection is perfected
So I'ma let 'em understand From a young G's perspective
And before me better get hushed if I have to find a contraceptive
You never know she could be earning her man And learning her man
And at the same time burning her man Now you know I ain't with the n*gga, this
sh*t tenant Ain't no geezer good enough to get burned
while I'm a fan of it And that's relevant, real deal, holy field
And now you f*ckin' know how I feel Well if it's good enough to get broke off a
proper chunk I'd take a small piece of some of that funky stuff
It's like this and like that and like this, Santa It's like that and like this and like
that, Anna It's like this and like that and like this,
Santa Drake creep to the mic like a fan
We gotta ask you about your famous 2004 article where you talk about rockism and poptimism
Is this something that you just get asked about constantly, like when you do press?
Is this like- You've illustrated a difference between us,
Ezra, with that phrase "when you do press" Yeah
Because traditionally, I'm a writer and traditionally no one asks me any questions
except for now that I've written a book but yes, the idea-
Now you're on the circuit That's right, man
Give me some advice No, the idea that like you write something
It's always been a little surreal to me that you like email something into the New York Times
I was at the Times at the time in the 2000s and they would like print a million newspapers
and send them around the country like you kind of know that's happening but you don't really know
you don't really know what people's reactions are so yes, the idea that like anyone would read it
and want to talk to me about it let alone argue over that article for years
That's like the best case scenario for someone like me
Well, totally I mean and how many- You know, I have a lot of respect for
music writing and music criticism but how many early 2000s music essays are referenced in 2021?
Yeah, I certainly wasn't expecting that and it was, you know, it was a continuation
This term rockism was invented as far as I can tell in the early 80s in the UK
Oh yeah, so we wanted to clarify about that because we were talking about it before you came on
So you didn't create the words rockism or poptimism?
No, in fact, I didn't even use the term poptimism in the essay
I'm not sure it existed yet that came along later and rockism I certainly didn't coin it
but it was like this debate that had been happening and it happened in the UK in the 80s
and like all the music critics kind of knew about it but I felt like your average
normie American listener had no idea that this was happening
So I kind of wrote this essay about rockism partly to express some of my own grudges
but also as a way of saying like hey this is a thing that's happening
This is a debate that's going on and you know this is this kind of gets to
some of the fundamental questions of like how we value music, right?
Rockism means like taking the values of rock and roll and elevating them among all others, right?
Imagining that the way that rock and roll is the coolest kind of music
and any other kind of music if it's good it'll be a little bit like rock and roll in some way
It'll be kind of rebellious, it'll be kind of scruffy, it'll be kind of raw, it'll be kind of noisy, right?
And you used to see this you see like rappers get praised like oh they're finally not doing that
bling bling stuff they're gonna really get into some real stuff or like this you know this record's
cool because the production is really this or like they're not just one of those groups you see in
videos like the live show is really great and so the idea of challenging rockism is the idea of
saying like hey wait a second like why is rough better than smooth? Why is a concert better than a video?
Why is it why is making great albums better than making great singles? And you know those actually
turn out to be sort of hard questions to answer because it's impossible to have no preconceptions
about music, right? We all have ideas about what we think we like and the trick is to just be aware
of what those ideas are and maybe think about where they come from.
Well and it's interesting because today I feel like sometimes you see critics who
I mean I've seen this people say this like they almost feel like personally wounded like there
was some over correction. Yeah. After people started to talk about rockism that there became
such a high dose of poptimism that actually rock was just so dead as a doornail and so I've seen
this narrative out there I don't know if that's entirely true but it's interesting that anybody
even feels that way and I guess one question I have for you is somebody who in 2004 was
writing about this in terms of this rockism versus maybe you didn't use the word poptimism
but anti-rockism. What do you think happened over the next 17 years?
Well it's funny when I read the piece now like part of the thrust of the piece part of the vibe
of the piece is like hey guys like Wilco is cool fine but like how come we don't take Destiny's
Child seriously right and like that war obviously has been won right like Beyonce is probably the
most admired musician on the planet maybe and Beyonce is like not interested in rock and roll
at all as far as we can tell. She's doing bigger numbers than Wilco I can tell you that. Well they
all they often did bigger numbers but I'm but this was partly about respect right and the idea of
like who gets treated as serious. No no she's doing bigger respect numbers. Yes she's doing
huge respect numbers and in fact like well ironically right here's the ironic thing about
Beyonce like she's maybe doing bigger respect numbers than streaming numbers right like she's
not necessarily making monster hits these days but like she's ascended into royalty.
I guess this is just a purely intellectual question is when you're talking about the way
in which music critics or a type of snobby music listener had these rock ideas even if they weren't
talking about genre they still these rock ideas that came from 20th century rock fan paradigms.
Right. Does Beyonce's success shatter that or actually did the paradigms of 20th century rock
music thinking actually win and Beyonce still had to go make her quote unquote like serious
critically acclaimed albums to and you know what I mean? Well I mean if you define it that way it's
a little bit circular right you can't prevent critics from acclaiming critically acclaimed music
but I think that you know if you define rockism as like the values of rock and roll then part of
what I wanted to do in this book was talk about how like every genre has its own ism right there's
R&B ism there's country ism definitely country ism right there's hip-hop ism so in that sense
yes maybe it's just a shift but at the same time you mentioned like snobbery and the idea of like
musical snobbery and like that is something you definitely can't get rid of because snobbery is
really hard to define in music as elsewhere right like to be a snob means to like something and not
like something else or maybe to not like something else because you don't like the people that that
something else is associated with and like right that's just describes the process of loving music
like we all do that all the time I'm not sure there's any way to love music without being a
snob in some sense and if anything I think professional music listeners tend to be less
snobby than like regular people who like if you go up to them a regular person and ask what they
think about Justin Bieber or something you're liable to get you know like 90 seconds of straight
abuse and of the kind that you would ever hear on NPR or read in the New York Times so I think I
think there's no way to escape snobbery I think one of the things about music is that no matter
how much of it you consume there's always stuff that you're devaluing or ignoring there's always
something that's like outside of your vision and so yeah when we're elevating Beyonce there's
something else that we're not paying close attention to right like a lot of the people
a lot of the listeners who were the most fired up about like we don't want to be rockist we want to
be poptimist and sometimes that was political right sometimes that was we want to make sure
we're celebrating the music of women and people of color queer artists etc like sometimes some of
those people were the people who were the most bummed out about the EDM boom of the 2010s like
the most mad at Avicii and Alesso and Tiësto and Skrillex and all these people that are filling up
arenas with kids wearing you know dayglo fishnets or whatever and so like there's always something
that people hate and there's always something that is kind of not getting that sort of acclaim
and in that essay I wrote in 2004 I said something like you know there's lots of new music out there
we need some new prejudices and like that's kind of what I meant in terms of not that like there's
somehow a way to as George Michael would say listen without prejudice I'm not sure that's possible but
the idea is just to think about what your prejudices are and whether they're kind of
like suitable to the moment and one thing that I hope and one thing that I enjoy is that sometimes
you can get a bit of a like a voyeuristic thrill of listening to music and just thinking about like
who loves this like why do they love it what would it feel like to love this if you love this
what would be the thing about it that you loved and so hopefully that's part of the fun of thinking
through these different genres these different communities it's like you don't have to end up
loving you know 80s country or death metal or slow jams or whatever but like maybe it's kind of fun
to think about those communities and where that comes from and what what itch that stuff is scratching
right
to the left to the left
to the left to the left
to the left to the left everything you own in the box to the left in the closet that's my stuff yes
if I bought it please don't touch don't touch keep talking and that's that's fine but could you walk
on top at the same time and it's my name it's a necktack to remove your back let me call you a cab
standing in the front door telling me how I'm such a fool talking about how I'll never ever find a
man like you you got me twisted you must not know about me you must not know about me I can have
another day in a minute matter of fact he'll be here in a minute baby you must not know about me
you must not know about me I can have another day of tomorrow
Spent you ever for a second get to thinking irreplaceable
well on this show we do talk about rock a lot and that was the opening chapter
yes of your book is about rock and it's very interesting one thing that I noticed reading
that chapter was like it's funny to think how many times rock was declared dead slash played out
basically starting with like the late 60s 1970 yeah the way you framed that was very interesting
so the Beatles are over everybody starts asking who are the new Beatles well there's a band we
don't talk about that much today but one band in the running in terms of their popularity
was Grand Funk Railroad yes critics couldn't stand so you see basically you're talking about
this moment where in the 60s the biggest rock music tended to also be critically acclaimed and
considered important by like the uh intelligentsia yeah everybody was listening to the Beatles and
then suddenly you get into the 70s and people like wait the big bands are like Black Sabbath
and Grand Funk Railroad like what's going on and there were critics who were like well rock's out
of gas that was fun like 15 years or whatever even some of the bands right like it's 71 and
Led Zeppelin's like it's been a long time since I rock and rolled and you're like oh this is like
a nostalgic rock song about the bygone golden era of rock and roll yeah it seemed like in the early
70s and you had some other quotes from like kind of major rockers kind of just being like
essentially being like yeah this is kind of over crocodile rock Elton John yeah so in some because
we talk a lot about this show um Jake once had a co-worker who told him a guy who would seemingly
be a you know like a middle-aged dude who probably listened to a lot of rock music in his life and
they were talking music and this guy took a bite out of his burrito and said to Jake rock's played
out dog by the time that like you're getting like random like 40 something white dudes saying rock's
played out it seems like now it's really out of gas but then it's interesting to think well is
it's been ending ever since 1970 something peaked then and we're we're kind of still there so rock
is one of the older the fact that you started with rock kind of made me wonder like I feel like a lot
of people that I know if you told them all the genres that you were writing about in the book
they would say that rock is the most played out it's the most dead whereas r&b and rap still very
vibrant things are happening country has this slight permanence that the idea of it being dead
doesn't even make sense permanently controversial which helps so it's interesting to me that you've
done this kind of deep study of the genre of rock in the first chapter of your book you also in 2004
noted this kind of need for a new way of looking at things which also coincided with kind of a
cultural shift and how a lot of people were looking and talking about rock music now having
looked at all and also studied all these other genres do you think rock's played out dog has it
been dead since 1970 like people are talking about zom but the zombified idea of rock since the 70s
and the 80s does that trip you out thinking about rock it's just such a weird concept i think the
word you use that's helpful here is zombified like i think i think rock is definitely undead
and that can mean a few different things um it's funny you read some pieces about like bruce
springsteen in the 70s and i think in one of the like rock and roll one of the rolling stone
illustrated guides to rock they're like he's okay but he's like kind of a throwback like he's kind
of old-fashioned but like what bruce springsteen realized in the 70s was that the future of rock
and roll belonged to the nostalgic people that rock and roll was gonna be in one way or another
kind of nostalgic more or less you know there's exceptions like some of the metal stuff
well you know valued novelty but there is a stuckness about rock and roll right like a
traditionalness of it like people are still arguing about like what should be in a country band but
like a rock band that thing of having a drummer bassist a guitar maybe a keyboardist and a singer
hasn't really changed in 50 years and even the bands haven't really changed like there are some
people who are like rocks played out dog but for the people that are still super into it if you met
someone that like like what do you listen to and they're like i'm really into rock and roll they'd
be like you could probably guess like yeah i bet that person likes the rolling stones like i bet
they like led zeppelin right in that way rock and roll is the most traditional which is funny
because that's kind of an uncomfortable position for rock and roll to be in and you know i think
if you look at like the current charts right there's an argument that rock and roll lives on
in country music right that that's when you hear like songs with like big electric guitars and a
lot of the instrumental lineup that you would associate with rock and roll and a lot of the
biggest rock bands of the day like mainstream rock bands whether it's like glass animals or
coldplay or imagine dragons right these big like festival rock bands love to collaborate with pop
singers and pop producers and kind of like are playing down their rock and roll identity right
like chris martin by some definitions is like the biggest rock star on the planet but he doesn't
really lean into that rock identity right it's almost like you yeah you could say the biggest
rock bands became pop but it's almost like of course they they wouldn't be the biggest if they
weren't pop in some respect the last time that like a purely rock band could be anything considered
like having the cultural gravity of pop you'd have to go back to the 70s right or maybe i thought
you were gonna say nirvana i guess the difference between like nirvana and the beatles that nirvana
like when you were talking about um you know same era as nirvana like dr dre coming out no matter
how big that was it still represented something non-pop in a way whereas i guess you know when
you think about the the beatles and even the rolling stones somehow they just occupied both
at once well and one of the ironies of the nirvana of course is that they become not only the biggest
band on the planet but kind of like set the sound of rock and roll for decades to come but they
think of themselves as kind of an anti-rock band right their whole thing is like we're not going
to be like those other people on mtv and they speaking of leaning in they really leaned into
that anti-identity and you know i say in the book one way you know that someone's part of a genre or
part of a tradition is that they complain about it they say they hate it they're like so when you see
a band like nirvana and they're saying like oh we hate these all these bands that do this or that
like you can tell like oh they really relate in some way to this rock and roll tradition and that's
why they care enough about it to complain about it and want to change it somehow just the way you
hear country singers being like all this stuff in nashville and this stuff on country radio
like if you hear someone saying that you know that's a country singer because that's the only
people that care enough to complain about the community so in a sense you know nirvana is kind
of like an anti-rock and roll band and the the irony is they create this thing alternative rock
which becomes the mainstream like paradoxically right like alt rock and mainstream rock even the
charts end up sort of resembling each other yeah i thought it was interesting how you said that
the like the post nirvana era is has lasted basically forever it's insane right and like
i just i feel like i always thought that like nirvana was like kind of the last gasp and if
you think of like the 20th century as like the rock or like the post-war kind of 20th century
as the rock century and like i trip on this which is basically like and tell me what you think or if
i'm just off on some weird tangent but i feel like in the 20th century each decade had like a distinct
cultural zeitgeist 50s the 60s 70s and like nirvana was like i kind of think of this like
the 90s as like the last decade and nirvana sort of like epitomized the cultural zeitgeist of that
decade and since then it's just kind of been a blur like for me maybe just because i'm i'm getting
older but i just feel like from 2000 to now it's just like one just blur of a decade i don't really
have a sense of like this was the 2010s this was the team or like this was the odds this was the
teens and i feel like nirvana being the last band in a way sort of like exemplifies that like we're
still in this weird post nirvana like alt world i would zoom in a little bit and say that like i
think it's easier to do that in the 60s where you have a lot of these things combining in the 50s
and 60s right there's a moment in the 50s where like elvis is number one on the country and rnb
and pop charts simultaneously i think like and there is this sense in the 60s people were talking
about like rolling stones and the supremes as like they're all part of this like rock and roll thing
that's happening but like part of why i wrote this book is that because of these genres and
because of this fragmentation i think you start having multiple zeitgeists like you think of
nirvana as the sound of the 90s to me like when you say 90s like maybe my first thought is like
so-called gangster rap like that's kind of really the sound of the 90s but if you talk to someone
else they'd be like well the 90s were the decade of like garth brooks and shania twain and the end
of the decade like dixie chicks and all this like country pop stuff coming together and that was
really important and so i think what i hear is like a multiplicity i think if you take any of
those genres you can like tease out what's going on right like in the 2000s the rise of like indie
rock and like retro rock is a big thing for rock and roll in the 2000s for instance or or in hip
hop in 2000s it's all about geographical diversity the rise of atlanta as the new home of hip hop and
the the rise of regional scenes around the country and those get popular so i think there are stories
you can tell but again you don't necessarily have that feeling arguably maybe until recently of like
the whole country is listening to the same thing and you can call it a zeitgeist i think one of
the ironies is like you know i wrote this book about genres and one of the things i wrestle with
is this idea that like this is the moment where maybe they seem like they're dissolving like this
is the moment when it's like it's like lil nas x and it's post malone and it's the kid laroi and
it's like all these people that are kind of making all sorts of music at the same time and so you
know one of the things that people say about this moment is like oh maybe there is a sound of now
because music is kind of merging and congealing into one like sticky mass and you know what i
suggest in the book i have no idea if it's true or not but i put it in a book anyway is that maybe
what that is is that's just setting the stage for the next backlash and maybe just as in that moment
in the late 70s where it felt like everything was going disco and like the rolling stones were disco
and rod stewart was disco and the bgs were disco and dolly parton was disco and star wars was disco
like that creates this furious anti-disco backlash maybe that's what happens in the next 10 years is
there's like a backlash against you know these sort of like half song half-rapped trap drums
kind of tracks where people push each other away again and say like no i don't want to listen to
the same thing that those people over there are listening to i want to do something different
because i think both of those are very human maybe even very american impulses right the impulse to
like form a group and be like yeah we can all be together doing our thing and the impulse to like
push the group away and be like i'm not like those people over there i don't know what their problem
is yeah it will be interesting to see what happens because there is yeah i think the streaming
services have created a different ecosystem and i think they're probably eventually i mean i i often
talk about when i think reflect on my band's career and i think about the moment that we came
out and that was this like funny moment in between napster and the streaming services right people
were still kind of buying records but there was more need for blogs and people sharing music
directly and writing about music obviously there wasn't you know playlist culture yet it kind of
looks like that will be seen as this like funny little window that was neither the 20th century
model nor was it the 21st century model it was like kind of like a lost decade which is not to
say that there wasn't meaningful music made there but just in terms of like the the texture of
the music industry will be it's like neither here nor there
slowly into the city
hearts in river are filled with snow
she's got the ring on his heart and finger
oh
a thousand years in one piece
the sail was she took it from me
lily white hat
short long fish
she'd seen the thing
in the young man's ring
the storm gathered rain
I liked in the book how you had so many contemporaneous sources it was really cool
because people act like they didn't think what people were thinking like people act like no one ever thought Prince was a sellout
and it's like no there's a big there was an argument over this over how like oh to like get on MTV like a black man has to be light-skinned and a little bit effeminate and
playing an electric guitar and that somehow like you know that somehow a quote-unquote manly black man like MTV is afraid of that
and so instead you get Prince and Michael Jackson right that was one conversation that was going on and this idea that like this desire for crossover success was
ruining R&B right and no one talks about Prince that way now
and so the arguments that we have are different but the things that we want from music right the fact that we want it to be kind of authentic in some way that's hard for us to
actually put into words or that we're we're skeptical of the lure of mainstream success even as we kind of get into the music industry
and somehow we want the mainstream to be radical which is probably a contradiction in terms like a lot of those things are still like coursing through the way we think
about music even if like someone like Prince who used to be in all sorts of ways like one of the most controversial musicians in America is now just like someone that
everyone loves and and reps and I but I I suspect that some of the people that would count themselves as Prince fans like you know they're not like the most controversial
musicians in the world
but they would count themselves as Prince fans like if they sat down and like listen to Dirty Mind front to back they'd be like holy crap like partly because it's so good
but partly because like this is a really like insane record like this sounds maybe more new wave than I than people talk about Prince sounding right like Prince has kind
of been absorbed into this idea of like black music which is a term that's like super hard to define but people sort of use it with the idea that some music could be more or
less black
and I'm not exactly sure what that means but certainly one of the things that made Prince stand out was the way that he was engaging very forthrightly with musical
traditions like new wave that were considered white you know something similar with George Clinton right who in some ways is like the epitome of like funky musical
blackness but like his whole thing is like he's also got like a sick guitar player and they're getting played on like underground FM rock stations so all this stuff is
more mixed up sometimes than we remember it in the stories and also at a more
profound level there's this question about history there is this idea that many of us still have I think that like people in the future are going to validate what we like
right like if you like some record that no one else likes there is this feeling like deep down like this is going to get rediscovered like people are going to realize like
this record is really good and you know I understand that urge I often feel that urge but I'm skeptical of that too because I'm like I don't know man people in the future
won't necessarily understand 2021 better than we understand it
right now like maybe this is the best knowledge that we'll ever have of this moment and the historians that go back and future listeners who are elevating one performer
from this year and denigrating another maybe they're the ones who are missing out maybe there's nothing so great about posterity.
That's a very interesting point and it's crossed my mind in some ways over the years because you know just as an artist and I'm sure you think about this too Jake and your
work like when you look around especially these days you can sometimes wonder when you want to say something you want to do something you can wonder well how's this
going to interact with the current cultural moment and of course you could say to yourself well if it doesn't now yeah maybe in the future it will and yet
basically what I'm saying is there's also a school of thought that's saying like being ahead of your time sometimes just also means that you are behind your time
there's an old idea that being ahead of your time meant that you were visionary and the world was too small minded to understand what you were doing and then one day if you
accept this idea that people are getting smarter and more generous all the time which is very you can poke a lot of holes in but like you were saying the idea that people
will understand things better in the future okay well yeah if you look at it that way
sure maybe one day when the humanity is filled with all these enlightened beings then they'll go back and be like damn you know who got slept on in 1992 is this band.
Kanye speaks a lot to this right you know where he has said you know how he makes music not for now but for later and I do think that he has a point when he talks about not being
seduced but not he's a huge star by the current wave right because it'd be very easy to just make music that is currently popular.
But ironically he does make music that's currently popular he's had albums that maybe took like a year or something for people to like kind of shift their impressions
of but like he's been incredibly popular throughout his career and I'm certainly a fan we could talk about Kanye all day but I would just say to Kanye you got to watch out
for the other thing man because you've been extraordinarily popular it's more the pendulum just swings and also in the future it's like you know people want new
stories too there's gonna be somebody who at least they're gonna write the article.
Say in 10 years say you know who in the 2000s was really interesting it was this artist that nobody gave a shit about right you know what if you throw that on right now
you're probably gonna find it more interesting than listening to gold digger because you haven't heard it 300 times and then you'll listen to it and be like yeah this
was yeah this is pretty fresh and it'll be some weird mix of nostalgia and you know whatever framing.
But music is communication right like that's part of the whole idea that's part of why we love it and so yeah the question is like is it necessarily better to communicate
with listeners in the future than to communicate with listeners right now I don't know or it's not really about better or worse but like that's the thing you can do right
some people do make music that really resonates with listeners in the future and some people you know like the velvet underground or the always the classic example
right the velvet underground not that popular at the time but like are way more relevant.
Way more relatively popular and influential than people might have thought back then and they sound weirdly contemporary right like even today you can write a velvet
underground record and if I told you that was some kids in Ridgewood that you'd be like oh that kind of makes sense.
So that's like a thing you can do but it's not the only way that you can communicate and a different way you can communicate is to communicate to like a bunch of listeners
right now I talk in the book a little bit about rude by magic remember that song.
Oh yeah of course.
Why you gotta be so rude yes and like it was enormous back in whatever was two thousand fourteen or something and then it kind of fades right in the group's reputation
kind of fades and I say in the book like maybe we can think about songs like that the same way we think about languages that are dying out.
Like the last native speaker is finally dying like the last person who loved that song is dying at some point in the future and like future generations will never again
be able to speak that language like they'll never really be able to go back and understand why that song maybe was as big as it was like maybe we should value things that
are kind of like disappearing in that way maybe that's one way to celebrate pop.
It's also very interesting question because it's also yeah I'm sure you could write a whole other book about that cultural ideas of longevity and timelessness like
who knows maybe when the last person who knows anything about you dies your soul is set free and you enter into eternal bliss so magic one day if nobody actually cares
about that song I'm sure it could also easily come back on TikTok but let's say nobody ever cares about it again.
Maybe their souls will taste eternal bliss and heaven and meanwhile Kanye will be trapped in some sort of like dimensional prison and they'll say damn I wish I didn't
make music for the future.
I think about Elvis that way like when I was growing up like Elvis had been dead for so long and he seemed like super immortal right like it's just like Elvis was just a fact
of American life I remember when this postal service had the big competition between you had to choose between the two different Elvis stamps did you want the young
Elvis stamp or the old Elvis stamp like Elvis was everywhere like it seemed like okay you've done it you've achieved this thing and you're a permanent fixture in
American life.
I feel like Elvis is a lot less prominent now than he was in the 80s or 90s I remember reading somewhere about how the market for Elvis memorabilia had crashed kind of just
because like the fans were kind of like dying out and like.
That's exactly what we were wondering about because before you came on we were talking about there was just a big Grateful Dead Sotheby's auction.
Yeah.
And we're just kind of talking about like yeah well these prices for just like a speaker or road case hold up in 25-30 years we just don't know it's hard to say so we're
actually wondering aloud are there examples of markets that crashed where somebody paid top dollar and probably assumed well this will only go up in value and it did
not.
So you're saying that that happened with Elvis stuff.
That's what I read I have to go back and look I mean the irony is like of course it happened with CDs like it's funny when I was when I was a kid if you'd asked me to rank how
valuable my stuff was right it would have been like CDs first then vinyl then cassettes then t-shirts which I think was absolutely backwards right like if I had kept my
dead Kennedy's t-shirts nice and crispy that would be worth way more than the CDs which absolutely no one cares about.
But it's an it's interesting because it's a different way to think about musical value right like when I was growing up musical value was often measured in albums like
yeah there's a novelty song but like would anyone really buy the album like yeah they had one single but is anyone really buying the album and you know that doesn't
really exist now in the same way the idea that like oh you have to love something enough to make that investment and that was the bar that you had to clear to be serious
music.
And that doesn't exist now in fact like if you think about the online marketplace partly because people aren't making the decision of like what to buy and what to like
part money with they sometimes aren't making those judgments like sometimes those judgments of good and bad are economic judgments linked to like well what would we
pay for and maybe if you watch a tick tock video like you don't actually have an opinion on whether it was like good or bad or how good was it you're not like giving it a
letter of grace.
In your head you're just like watching it and moving on to the next thing so maybe there is a connection there between like paying money for something and valuing it in an
aesthetic sense.
Yeah that's going to be very interesting to look back on the early tick tock era and see to what extent tick tock hits and I'm sure sometimes they legitimately changed an
artist's career or reintroduced a whole generation to the artist and then how many times was a crazy tick tock hit just the same kind of one hit wonder we've had in every
era where it's kind of like disposable came and went funny little trend wasn't particularly sticky as they say.
Well maybe that's a good note to end on thanks so much for coming through.
Thanks man this has been fun.
There's so much to talk about I hope you'll come back again everybody got to check out the new book Major Labels the History of Popular Music in Seven Genres it's out now.
This is exciting for me I'm excited to be part of the time crisis cinematic universe.
We're very happy to have you well have a good one we'll talk to you soon.
Bye. Peace.
A set list an Elvis Presley set list from 1969 I'm looking at Sotheby's right now.
Oh.
On really cool hotel stationery.
What hotel?
The International Hotel from 1969 1970 The Midnight Show.
And it's written by Elvis?
I think so.
A set list from a midnight show during Elvis's residency at the International Hotel Las Vegas.
Ex Charlie Hodge friend and confidant of Presley and member of his entourage.
So maybe this guy.
I find it hard to believe that he wrote his own set list.
That's hard to say but it's handwritten.
Alright that's going to take it down a few points for me because if you could tell me that Elvis straight up wrote it I think it's going to increase the value.
But still an important historical document Elvis may have held it looked at it.
I OK just to put in context just to really think this through if this was a Sotheby's thing and it said handwritten Grateful Dead set list which they probably didn't
write out set list too often famously.
But let's say something like that existed.
You knew that somebody in the Grateful Dead crew wrote it.
It was on cool hotel stationery and it was from 69 like a pretty like important deep year.
You knew that that would go for at least 3000 bucks if it was on the Sotheby's thing.
So is Elvis getting to that kind of number or is this more like 600 bucks.
What is it.
Forty seven fifty four thousand seven hundred fifty dollars.
OK OK.
I said that in a weird way.
I really would have believed either version if you told me to like no it's actually forty seven dollars fifty cents.
Nobody gives it.
I would buy it.
OK so that's like a pretty robust marketplace I would say.
I think that's very strong.
But when did that sell.
Do you have that information.
I think it's 2016 it said.
Hold on I'm sending it over.
It's actually really cool.
I actually kind of want this.
All right.
Everybody we're chipping in for Jake's birthday.
Yes that set list holding its value.
Not seeing it.
No.
All right.
Number five.
So Jake we're just going to run through last week's top five that I missed right.
That you missed.
OK cool.
Number five is a group called Why Don't We.
Heard of them.
No.
They're a boy band called Why Don't We and this is their song Love Back.
This is a new boy band you said.
Yep.
New boy band Why Don't We.
Is there any sort of Disney affiliation.
Are they from Orlando.
Yeah what's the story with these guys.
Seinfeld I get number crunch on Why Don't We.
I don't remember.
Yes.
So they're from L.A.
Five guys in the band.
So sort of your classic NSYNC backstreet formation.
Are they all white.
Yes they they all appear to be white.
They're known as WDW to their fans.
OK.
They came out came out 2016.
That seems like a really aggressive move in this economy.
Just five white guys in a boy band.
Well I just thought like maybe I'm am I idiotic here.
Of the American boy bands are there are they all white.
Historically boy bands have been pretty segregated.
Is there a multiracial boy band.
I mean there were some multiracial R&B groups.
None of the boy bands.
O-Town was multiracial.
O-Town was multiracial.
They were one of the big ones.
But you know the same way that you had new edition and then they tried to make a white new edition new kids on the block.
Right.
It's pretty segregated.
Sounds pretty good.
OK.
Thumbs up from Jake.
All right.
I like the chorus.
I mean did we say he'd like this.
So you guys speculated on what I would think.
Yeah we speculated on what you would think.
OK.
You know it's funny.
Thumbs up.
I haven't thought about WDW once since we recorded the last episode.
WDW.
It sounds like WMDs or something.
WD40.
Yeah.
We should put together a boy band called WMD.
This is the rare acronym that's like longer than what it's shortening.
It's awkward to say.
Why don't we.
It's like three times more syllables.
W is three syllables.
So as you said quote early Jake would think this sucks but he's been throwing curveballs lately.
So I don't know if fatherhood just mellowed Jake out but he might be like catchy song great beat love these guys.
Hmm.
What are you reading a transcript of the show.
Seinfeld says it's too down the middle for Jake.
Where are you reading this.
I got my sources.
No we have a great producer Matt Matt killed it Matt Matt is sending all of Jake's takes.
You don't know that we produce a limited edition bound transcript of every show.
It's on really nice paper.
You probably know we do it with a pretty cool art book publisher.
You probably aware of them.
The name escapes me.
But anyway we do an edition of about 10.
Damn there's a copy on Sotheby's.
Yeah.
It's not worth the top of the market.
No doubt TC transcripts.
I think the acronym should be dub de dub instead of WDW or dub de dub de dub de dub de dub.
Well because you know that and I can't remember where this comes from if it's like from hipster runoff or just like CT kind of came up with it.
But internally often Vampire Weekend is called the dubs.
Right.
It's kind of a CT thing.
He often calls it the dubs.
The dubs.
Nice.
Yes.
We're the dubs.
So they can't be the dubs.
But anyway if there's any young men of any race I might add who want to audition for WMD.
We're putting it together.
I feel like every few years we try to start a boy band.
Rarely makes it past the episode.
But one thing I know for sure is that the M of WMD stands for multiracial.
I'm not sure about the W or the D. Actually that could be it.
It's like all the guys that are doing interviews they're like so you guys are WMD like what does it stand for?
And they're just like well the M is for multiracial and it's just like that's right Jason.
The M is for multiracial.
Like absolutely.
And just piggybacking off what Rodney said the M is for multiracial.
And the interviewer is like okay but what about the W or the D?
And they just kind of all look at each other scratching their heads and just like you know right now we're mostly focusing on the M.
The W and the D might be revealed.
And I know we're all white.
But we certainly support diversity.
We're just going to find five white knuckleheads and send them on a press tour.
And the only information they're armed with is that the M stands for multiracial.
You know it kind of implies that the band's name is Weapons of Multiracial Destruction.
Oh god.
Oh no.
Okay WMD.
Full circle.
Alright we're pulling the plug on WMD.
That's a good turn.
The number four song is um it's Elton John, old school legend and new school legend Dua Lipa coming together on Cold Heart the Panao remix.
So Jake this is a remix of a recent Elton John song.
You're going to recognize some other familiar things.
I'll say personally I've gotten more and more into this song since two weeks ago.
Where have you heard it?
We were like kind of doing some family YouTube watching.
And the video the like thumbnail of this was like a cartoon.
So our son wanted to watch that one.
So then we threw it on and we're kind of grooving to it.
And actually it's like a fun like vaguely anime video.
I heard it again I was like you know what I'm in.
I like this.
Who's singing?
Is this Elton?
That's autotuned Elton.
Really?
What was that verse?
That's like the new song.
It's strange.
Like they kind of go through different Elton songs.
But it's one song.
I hear him there.
That's such a classic like Bernie Taupin line delivered perfectly by Elton.
Hard done by you.
It's like nobody else could do that.
Yeah.
It just actually sounds good coming from Elton.
Is Bernie Taupin actually kind of a bad lyricist?
Just Elton sells it really well?
Elton sells it.
Mars ain't the type of place to raise your kid.
Yeah that's a clunker.
In fact it's cold as hell.
Or even Daniel.
Daniel's a sick song but it's like the lyrics are whack.
I looked up the chorus to that to play on the guitar.
Yeah.
Which is a fun song to play but the lyrics are just so bad.
I don't know.
And it's weird that he was just like a lyricist.
I mean he's one of the most successful lyricists of all time.
I know it's wild.
I'll say that I like the weirdness of Tiny Dancer or Goodbye Yellow Brick Road.
I think those weird turns of phrases but they're kind of moving.
And then he could just write a pretty straightforward beautiful song like your song.
Yeah.
I think those have some really great lyrics.
Yeah I guess there's some clunkers too.
What is it where he goes, "But then again no."
Or a man who makes potions for a traveling show.
I'm down.
It's fun.
I'm down with your song rules.
I mean that song, yeah.
Yeah your song is a beautiful song.
I wasn't so hot on this Dua Lipa Elton collab.
That was pretty weak.
That's what Ezra said.
Alright let's go to the transcript.
Jake would love some early Elton John.
I could see Jake not liking Auto-Tune to Elton.
I don't see Jake liking this.
I can see him saying, "Give me a Tiny Dancer, give me a Benny and the Jets."
Not feeling this one.
No soul.
Jake wouldn't like it because he loves the tasteful palette of the 70s.
Jake wouldn't like the music.
Pro Elton but wouldn't get the music.
Basically I think nailed it.
Perfect.
Yeah.
Verbatim.
Nailed it.
It's everything you thought and just didn't say.
The number three song is Coldplay x BTS.
This is the collab of the century.
Now I remember that we were wondering aloud on the last episode,
"Does Jake like Coldplay?"
We weren't sure what the answer would be.
I said that I thought Jake would like Coldplay but I believe during,
as we were discussing it, Nick texted you and you came back with, "Not a fan?"
That's right.
I do remember that.
I remember getting, I signed off, I was on vacation,
and then I'm getting texts from Nick.
I'm not working today.
I signed off early, I'm on vacay, I don't need these work texts coming in.
I got the OOT.
Jake was drinking the best margarita of his life on a beach in Hawaii.
Absolutely.
I don't need this.
Do you like Coldplay?
What the hell?
Nick, what the-- Do I like Coldplay?
He turns to Hannah in the deck chair making a face like, "You see this sh*t?"
You see what I had to put up with?
The office won't leave me alone.
You never like Coldplay?
Nick, really overstepping boundaries.
Never really liked Coldplay.
Not really a fan.
Have you ever listened to a full Coldplay album?
I think so.
I think in my brother's car once 15 years ago.
But no, I'm not going to actively put one on.
What about individual Coldplay songs?
Can you remember when "Yellow" came out, their first big hit?
I remember liking "Yellow."
I remember thinking this was a Benz knockoff, kind of like an early Radiohead knockoff.
It's just that classic mainstream kind of alt radio 25 years ago or whenever that was.
But I remember thinking, "Oh, it's good though. It's catchy. I like it. I like 'Yellow.'"
What about--
[singing]
I just find them corny. Not my thing.
What about the Chainsmokers collab?
Yeah, didn't you like that?
That's their best work.
Okay, so you like Coldplay X Chainsmokers, so you're more of a Coldplay collab guy.
Yeah.
And where do you stand on BTS currently?
Well, I have a long history with BTS. I've loved them for 23 years.
I'm never going to not make the BTS joke on this show.
You got to. You got to.
I'm fully committed to that BTS joke every time.
It's always funny.
Anyway, here's the new Coldplay X BTS single. Jake, it's called "My Universe."
Good title.
[singing]
[singing]
[singing]
[singing]
[singing]
Yeah, Sandhill, I think you're right. I think my favorite Coldplay is their collabs.
It's good.
This is strong.
This is not a bad song.
It's uplifting.
Yeah.
This is serviceable pop music.
So Ezra said, "Jake might like this one. It's fun with an '80s vibe.
This song will probably make Jake want to look under the hood.
What is Coldplay? Did the drummer play on this song?
He'd want to get into the 'What's it about?'"
Oh, yeah. Jake didn't actually take it there.
It's an intriguing title.
I thought that you might want to talk about what does it mean that a band collabbed with a boy band?
I thought you'd want to be like, "Did the drummer of Coldplay play on this?"
I just assumed it was basically just Chris Martin doing vocals over a--
Yeah, is the bass player of Coldplay playing on this?
I mean, maybe? I mean, I don't know.
I guess it is. It's not Chris Martin that's built a spell. It's Coldplay.
I do like the kind of haunting, sad '80s chords.
Like, what is it? Makes me think of like Betty Davis' eyes or one of those kind of like--
Oh, yeah.
Throw in Betty Davis' eyes, like a slightly haunting '80s pop song.
Maybe this was the inspiration.
♪ You, you are my universe ♪
♪ And I'm known to put you first ♪
♪ Her hair is hollow gold ♪
♪ Her lips sweet and raspy ♪
Who is this singer?
Uh, Kim Carnes.
♪ Her hands are never cold ♪
Is she like ultimately kind of a one-hit wonder?
I guess. Such a cool, raspy voice.
♪ Turn the music on you ♪
♪ You won't have to think twice ♪
♪ She's pure as New York snow ♪
♪ She got Betty Davis' eyes ♪
♪ If she teases you, she'll unease you ♪
♪ I'll go back to just to please you ♪
♪ She's precocious ♪
♪ And she knows just what it takes to make a problem ♪
♪ She got a pair of bubbles ♪
♪ Stand outside ♪
♪ She's got Betty Davis' eyes ♪
It's funny, like, the changes are very, like, subtle.
Yeah.
It's like the same dynamics the whole song,
and the chords sort of like shift subtly underneath.
Yeah, like that little walk down into the chorus.
Very sophisticated.
Yeah. But it's not like, "Oh, sh*t, here comes the chorus. Get ready."
Right.
But...
It's very chill, like, the whole time.
Was this song before, like, "Time After Time"?
Did this song invent the kind of, like, quiet, like...
Great question.
...80s, like, sad guitar, like, slightly palm-muted vibe?
"Time After Time" is what, '83?
I bet this is before.
It was written in '74.
Whoa.
It was written by Donna Weiss and Jackie Deshanin.
Oh.
Who, she had other big hits, Jackie Deshanin,
but they recorded it in '74,
but it was made popular by Kim Carnes in '81.
Oh, this is a cover.
So this is before the Cyndi Lauper, then.
I feel like this recording, though, is very influential for the '80s.
Even, like, an influence on, like, "I'm On Fire."
Oh, yeah, totally.
Skeletal, haunting, '80s pop.
All right.
The number two song.
This one's exciting, Jake.
Friend of the show, Ed Sheeran, has a new new single.
I'm sure you've probably been hearing "Bad Habits Everywhere,"
the one that came out a couple months ago,
but this is a new new single called "Shivers."
Shiver me timbers.
We actually didn't.
We were so struck by one of the lyrics that we actually didn't.
We didn't get the Jake's take.
We forgot to talk about what Jake's take.
Jake's take.
If you remember that, that we talked a lot about.
Oh, yeah, lipstick on my guitar.
Yeah, what situation is there lipstick on his guitar?
He's a rock star.
He goes down to the front, right?
And there's a girl in the front row that jumps up and kisses his guitar.
Interesting.
God, Ed is so rough.
I thought you liked Ed.
What have I ever been down with?
I was only laughing because you said "Shiver me timbers" in the beginning.
So I was picturing if the chorus is like,
"Ooh, I love it when you shiver my timbers."
That kind of could be a pop song.
Shiver my timbers.
That's going to be the first single for our boy band, WMD.
It's called "Shiver my timbers."
The album has sort of a nautical theme.
I like the vibe of the song.
I think it's the best Ed single in a while, actually.
I agree with that.
What does that even mean?
Shiver my timbers.
What are your timbers?
All right, Seinfeld, we need a crunch.
Shiver me timbers.
Oh, this part's cool.
It's an exclamation for shock.
It comes from, "In the heavy seas,
ships would be lifted up and pounded down so hard
as to shiver the timbers, startling the sailors."
I went to a dinner party a little while ago
where they had a tradition at this house
where the party was.
It was kind of fun.
I don't know the whole backstory,
but basically the host would write
a bunch of kind of like cards with a task on it
or almost like something you had to do.
Then at random, they would put them on everybody's plate
and you'd look at it.
What you had to do was something over the course of the dinner,
and you had to do it very naturally,
but it'd be something a little bit funny.
Like a mellow one would be like,
"Tell three different people at the dinner
that you're psychic and make a prediction for them."
That sounds stressful.
Yeah, it was a little stressful.
Or a more aggressive one would be like,
"Complain about the food loudly,"
something like that.
Anyway, I guess the point of the game,
it's really just to have fun and be silly,
but you want to do it naturally
so that at the end when everybody guesses,
it's not obvious what your card was.
If you get something kind of kooky,
you could do it.
Anyway, I kept thinking after that dinner party
about what would a good one be
if I ever had to write my own or come up with them.
I think a good one would be tell somebody
you have to use the phrase "shiver me timbers"
over the course of the dinner,
even though we're not at a dinner party together.
I just want to say to anybody listening,
if we can kind of play this game,
your assignment for the next two weeks
is at least five times just very casually
use the phrase "shiver me timbers" in conversation.
And if you're really good at it,
you'll be amazed that most people
won't really have time to say,
"What the f*ck did you just say?"
Maybe come downstairs and just be like,
"Maybe you're in a rush."
"Shiver me timbers, I'm late for school."
Anyway, thanks for the English muffin, Mom.
If anybody gives you a hard time about it,
say like, "Oh, what do you do?"
Like a pirate, say like, "No, no, no."
Dude, the pirates used this like 300 years ago.
It's kind of like actually trendy to say this now.
Wait, Nick, were you just saying something?
- Did you see "Succession" on Sunday?
"Shiver me timbers," I forgot it was on.
- Oh, that's good.
- Yeah.
- That's real good.
- Can I propose that we make this
the "Time Crisis Shiver Me Timbers" TikTok challenge?
Hashtag, try to capture some naturalistic moments
of this happening as part of our ongoing TikTok campaign
co-run by me and Jake.
- "Shiver me timbers," I forgot it was on.
I love this idea.
- Yeah, that's probably the easiest one
when you're making the TikTok challenge
is just to do it about some sort of live event.
Film yourself with your family and you know,
"Oh, shiver me timbers, the Dodgers are playing."
All right, the number one song this week.
Well, Jake, I know you know this one,
so I don't think we really commented
or guessed what you might think
'cause it's called "Fancy Like"
and it's by Walker Hayes.
- You remember this?
- All right.
- Vaguely.
- It's got a good feel.
- You know what's funny?
This riff kind of reminds me of like,
it kind of gives me like a "Let It Be" vibe.
- Oh yeah.
- Not the song, but like the record, the Beatles record.
- Like "I Dig a Pony" that riff.
- Yeah, like that kind of vibe.
Or like, yeah, it's real "I Dig a Pony" vibe.
And now I'm just picturing the Beatles in '69
on the roof of the Apple building playing this song.
(laughing)
- Jeez.
(laughing)
Have you seen the trailer for "Get Back"?
- Yes, that's why it's on my mind, I think.
- Somebody needs to do an edit.
That's just, yeah, all the Beatles.
I love the way that they,
I mean, it's gonna be so tight,
but they frame it in this way that's like,
the Beatles have three weeks to finish their new album.
And then it like cuts to them just like,
how many songs do we have?
And John's like, I think we got none.
And they're just like, pressure's on.
And then they're walking up to the roof
and then they debut "Fancy Leg."
(laughing)
♪ It's like Applebee's ♪
♪ Don't need no Tesla to impress ♪
♪ My girl is happy ♪
- That's a pretty good top five.
I'm not even kidding.
I enjoy something about all five of those songs.
- I feel you.
- Am I alone here?
Am I alone here?
- We stand with you.
- All right.
Well.
(laughing)
Thank you to our guests,
Kelifa, check out the new book.
We'll be back in two weeks.
Peace.
- "Time Crisis" with Ezra Koenig.
Biggie.
View on TCU Wiki | Download Episode | Download CSV | Download Transcript